[Archers] Archers Digest, Vol 101, Issue 30

Thu Feb 16 13:28:00 PST 2012

Back in my Trimarian days when I was first apprenticed to a laurel, his
advice was that you KNOW how to make it, not that you actually HAD to make
as they did in period.  His example was an A&S entry.  Note how it was done
in period and why you choose not to do it that way in your entry.  Example:
period pigments versus modern guache.  Period pigments - lethal, guache -
not.  So those of us who don't shoot yew ELBs or horse bows from Yumi, horn,
raw hide, et al, could easily explain how bows were made in period and why
we choose not to use that type bow.  First thing that comes to mind for me
is that a true ELB made out of yew costs about as much as 3Rivers Tomahawk,
The 3Rivers bow is glass backed which means I can shoot it for years,
whereas the yew bow will, over time begin string follow and reduce its
poundage and ultimately become a nice wall hanging.  Even though, like most
here, I'm obsessed with archery and have way too many bows, at least Lady E
thinks so, I would still rather spend my $$ for a bow that I can use for
more than a few years.  (Yes, I know there are exceptions.  I actually have
an old Ben Pearson lemon wood bow that is still serviceable, but it is the
exception.)  As for my arrows, I have a set of "period" arrows I made just
for demos.  But I choose not to shoot period arrows.  Too much effort for
arrows that I will most likely damage over a short period of time.  Thus
plastic nocks and field tips, all replaceable if need be or does not cause
crying due to loss of arrow that took a long time to make!

But I think the point that most accomplished archers make their own arrows,
strings, quivers and arm guards versus most heavies that buy all their
armor, weapons and shields is not really a fair comparison.  Not arguing for
or against, just pointing out some things that stand out to me.  

Now stainless steel versus mild steel or modern glass backed longbow versus
all wood ELB, yeah, similar comparisons.  But I think the real area of
distinction is how many archers can talk intelligently about bow types and
cultures that used each versus heavies talking about "period" fighting
techniques and weapons and cultures that used each.  i.e. flat snap and butt
wrap, are those actually period terms?  I have a few sword fighting books
and I can't find those references in the indexes.

cog

From: archers-bounces at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org
[mailto:archers-bounces at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org] On Behalf Of Jamie
Frailey
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2012 3:28 PM
To: archers at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org
Subject: Re: [Archers] Archers Digest, Vol 101, Issue 30

Wow we are drilling down now aren't we. In my observation, except for our
cross bow friends very few of use are using period gear. Quivers, belts and
arm guards excluded. Godai makes a great attempt. I am sure there others. We
make all our stuff from modern resources and shoot high performance
laminated bows. So until we all shoot just sticks and string we don't have
much room to criticize our rattan brothers and sisters on their equipment,
right! And for our targets, me the worst offender of late with Cartoons,
don't make period shoots. 

Just my observation

Seamus

On Feb 16, 2012, at 3:00 PM, archers-request at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org
wrote:

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Today's Topics:

  1. Re: Nature of peerage ... was: Re:  Archers Digest,         Vol 101,
     Issue 25 (Fen & Michelle)
  2. Re: Nature of peerage (John Atkins)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2012 08:55:06 -0800 (PST)
From: Fen & Michelle <mobishob at yahoo.com>
To: Siegfried <siegfried at crossbows.biz>,
            "archers at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org"
            <archers at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org>
Subject: Re: [Archers] Nature of peerage ... was: Re:  Archers Digest,
            Vol 101, Issue 25
Message-ID:
            <1329411306.91697.YahooMailNeo at web161703.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

?
His Excellency Siegfried has me thinking about... zebras.? Yes, zebras -
both horse and donkey,?but also neither.? I'll try to explain what I mean:
?
An archer will make his own "period bow & arrows" and then use them in
competition (skill at martial art). But do the heavies make "period" armor
to use in Crown Tourney?? Correct my ignorance if I'm wrong, but I believe
they would still use foam inserts as padding or stainless steel, modern
techniques to form metal, etc.? Same for personal combat techniques -?aren't
most trained in how to use a?rattan "club" instead of a sword??Again, same
for melee tactics on the field. Do we really use "period" tactics at Pennsic
if they are not effective?
?
Maybe someone more knowledgable can flesh these thought out. It just seems
to me that archery is like a zebra - portions of it fit into martial and the
laurel, but not enough to actually belong to either group.
?
Cheers
Fen

Atlantian Archery. Nothing exists within 100 yards without our permission.
?

________________________________
From: Siegfried <siegfried at crossbows.biz>
To: archers at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org 
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2012 10:51 AM
Subject: [Archers] Nature of peerage ... was: Re: Archers Digest, Vol 101,
Issue 25

...Where the one disconnect comes, is in the art/skill/science of the
activity itself.? IE, in the 'martial art' of "Skill at archery", or
"Skill at rapier".

...However, the 'gap' that is often trying to be addressed here.? Is
specifically the skill at the 'Martial Art' itself.? Being Amazing, at
the skill of fighting with a sword, or Amazing at the medieval art of
shooting a truly medieval crossbow or bow.

...Right now, it's that 'skill at martial art', that isn't being
recognized.? The Pelicans do not recognize it, because it's an 'art',
not a service.? The Laurel do not recognize it (though a decade ago
now, Society stated that they should), simply, and not their fault,
because it doesn't fit into the 'typical' mindset of the rest of the
Laurel arts, which revolve about research & creating physical items.

...However, this specific 'skill at a martial art' form, is recognized
specifically & solely for Armored Rattan Combat.? While yes, you need
(or should) have all the other characteristics of a Peer, comporting
oneself, teaching one's art, learning historical forms of one's art.

...Someone can be made a Peer, in this case a Knight, for the 'primary
reason' of their skill at medieval bladed combat, as represented by
rattan swords.

...However, if their chosen weapon that they want to perfect their skill
with, and their focus is that skill alone, is a Rapier.? Or is a
bow/crossbow.? Then they currently cannot be recognized the same way.
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Message: 2
Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2012 12:31:23 -0500
From: "John Atkins" <cogworks at triad.rr.com>
To: <archers at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org>
Subject: Re: [Archers] Nature of peerage
Message-ID: <008b01ccecd0$cdec2620$69c47260$@triad.rr.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Fen,

Once again, excellent point.  If one has read Bernard Cornwell's books about
early England and the Northmen and particularly his descriptions of a true
shield wall then watching an SCA battle with a shield wall holds little, if
any, resemblance to the "real thing".  Cornwell's shield walls are actual
walls with specific techniques.  SCA shield walls are a bunch of SCA
fighters lined up shoulder to shoulder digressing into one on one battles
soon after "engagement".  And more to the point, for an archer to become a
"peer" they should be known as making their bow, quiver, arm guard, string,
and arrows and fluent in the history of archery and done displays of
recreated archery gear?  And a fighter is made a knight/peer because their
bought their armor, shield, weapon (let's be honest about how many heavies
actually make their own gear and how period it is) and "hit real gud with
it"?

OK, I'm missing something here..........

cog

From: archers-bounces at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org
[mailto:archers-bounces at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org] On Behalf Of Fen &
Michelle
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2012 11:55 AM
To: Siegfried; archers at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org
Subject: Re: [Archers] Nature of peerage ... was: Re: Archers Digest, Vol
101, Issue 25

His Excellency Siegfried has me thinking about... zebras.  Yes, zebras -
both horse and donkey, but also neither.  I'll try to explain what I mean:

An archer will make his own "period bow & arrows" and then use them in
competition (skill at martial art). But do the heavies make "period" armor
to use in Crown Tourney?  Correct my ignorance if I'm wrong, but I believe
they would still use foam inserts as padding or stainless steel, modern
techniques to form metal, etc.  Same for personal combat techniques - aren't
most trained in how to use a rattan "club" instead of a sword? Again, same
for melee tactics on the field. Do we really use "period" tactics at Pennsic
if they are not effective?

Maybe someone more knowledgable can flesh these thought out. It just seems
to me that archery is like a zebra - portions of it fit into martial and the
laurel, but not enough to actually belong to either group.

Cheers

Fen

Atlantian Archery. Nothing exists within 100 yards without our permission.

From: Siegfried <siegfried at crossbows.biz>
To: archers at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org 
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2012 10:51 AM
Subject: [Archers] Nature of peerage ... was: Re: Archers Digest, Vol 101,
Issue 25

...Where the one disconnect comes, is in the art/skill/science of the
activity itself.  IE, in the 'martial art' of "Skill at archery", or
"Skill at rapier".

...However, the 'gap' that is often trying to be addressed here.  Is
specifically the skill at the 'Martial Art' itself.  Being Amazing, at
the skill of fighting with a sword, or Amazing at the medieval art of
shooting a truly medieval crossbow or bow.

...Right now, it's that 'skill at martial art', that isn't being
recognized.  The Pelicans do not recognize it, because it's an 'art',
not a service.  The Laurel do not recognize it (though a decade ago
now, Society stated that they should), simply, and not their fault,
because it doesn't fit into the 'typical' mindset of the rest of the
Laurel arts, which revolve about research & creating physical items.

...However, this specific 'skill at a martial art' form, is recognized
specifically & solely for Armored Rattan Combat.  While yes, you need
(or should) have all the other characteristics of a Peer, comporting
oneself, teaching one's art, learning historical forms of one's art.

...Someone can be made a Peer, in this case a Knight, for the 'primary
reason' of their skill at medieval bladed combat, as represented by
rattan swords.

...However, if their chosen weapon that they want to perfect their skill
with, and their focus is that skill alone, is a Rapier.  Or is a
bow/crossbow.  Then they currently cannot be recognized the same way.

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End of Archers Digest, Vol 101, Issue 30
****************************************

Regards,

Jamie Frailey

jamie at designbyfive.com

c. 443.834.8141

p. 443.615.7264

225 East Redwood Street, 3rd Floor

Baltimore, MD 21202

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