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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Back in my Trimarian days when I was first apprenticed to a laurel, his advice was that you KNOW how to make it, not that you actually HAD to make as they did in period. His example was an A&S entry. Note how it was done in period and why you choose not to do it that way in your entry. Example: period pigments versus modern guache. Period pigments – lethal, guache – not. So those of us who don’t shoot yew ELBs or horse bows from Yumi, horn, raw hide, et al, could easily explain how bows were made in period and why we choose not to use that type bow. First thing that comes to mind for me is that a true ELB made out of yew costs about as much as 3Rivers Tomahawk, The 3Rivers bow is glass backed which means I can shoot it for years, whereas the yew bow will, over time begin string follow and reduce its poundage and ultimately become a nice wall hanging. Even though, like most here, I’m obsessed with archery and have way too many bows, at least Lady E thinks so, I would still rather spend my $$ for a bow that I can use for more than a few years. (Yes, I know there are exceptions. I actually have an old Ben Pearson lemon wood bow that is still serviceable, but it is the exception.) As for my arrows, I have a set of “period” arrows I made just for demos. But I choose not to shoot period arrows. Too much effort for arrows that I will most likely damage over a short period of time. Thus plastic nocks and field tips, all replaceable if need be or does not cause crying due to loss of arrow that took a long time to make!<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>But I think the point that most accomplished archers make their own arrows, strings, quivers and arm guards versus most heavies that buy all their armor, weapons and shields is not really a fair comparison. Not arguing for or against, just pointing out some things that stand out to me. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Now stainless steel versus mild steel or modern glass backed longbow versus all wood ELB, yeah, similar comparisons. But I think the real area of distinction is how many archers can talk intelligently about bow types and cultures that used each versus heavies talking about “period” fighting techniques and weapons and cultures that used each. i.e. flat snap and butt wrap, are those actually period terms? I have a few sword fighting books and I can’t find those references in the indexes.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>cog<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> archers-bounces@seahorse.atlantia.sca.org [mailto:archers-bounces@seahorse.atlantia.sca.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Jamie Frailey<br><b>Sent:</b> Thursday, February 16, 2012 3:28 PM<br><b>To:</b> archers@seahorse.atlantia.sca.org<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Archers] Archers Digest, Vol 101, Issue 30<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Wow we are drilling down now aren't we. In my observation, except for our cross bow friends very few of use are using period gear. Quivers, belts and arm guards excluded. Godai makes a great attempt. I am sure there others. We make all our stuff from modern resources and shoot high performance laminated bows. So until we all shoot just sticks and string we don't have much room to criticize our rattan brothers and sisters on their equipment, right! And for our targets, me the worst offender of late with Cartoons, don't make period shoots. <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Just my observation<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Seamus<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>On Feb 16, 2012, at 3:00 PM, <a href="mailto:archers-request@seahorse.atlantia.sca.org">archers-request@seahorse.atlantia.sca.org</a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>Send Archers mailing list submissions to<br><span class=apple-tab-span> </span><a href="mailto:archers@seahorse.atlantia.sca.org">archers@seahorse.atlantia.sca.org</a><br><br>To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit<br><span class=apple-tab-span> </span><a href="http://seahorse.atlantia.sca.org/listinfo.cgi/archers-atlantia.sca.org">http://seahorse.atlantia.sca.org/listinfo.cgi/archers-atlantia.sca.org</a><br><br>or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to<br><span class=apple-tab-span> </span><a href="mailto:archers-request@seahorse.atlantia.sca.org">archers-request@seahorse.atlantia.sca.org</a><br><br>You can reach the person managing the list at<br><span class=apple-tab-span> </span><a href="mailto:archers-owner@seahorse.atlantia.sca.org">archers-owner@seahorse.atlantia.sca.org</a><br><br>When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific<br>than "Re: Contents of Archers digest..."<br><br><br>Today's Topics:<br><br> 1. Re: Nature of peerage ... was: Re: Archers Digest,<span class=apple-tab-span> </span>Vol 101,<br> Issue 25 (Fen & Michelle)<br> 2. Re: Nature of peerage (John Atkins)<br><br><br>----------------------------------------------------------------------<br><br>Message: 1<br>Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2012 08:55:06 -0800 (PST)<br>From: Fen & Michelle <<a href="mailto:mobishob@yahoo.com">mobishob@yahoo.com</a>><br>To: Siegfried <<a href="mailto:siegfried@crossbows.biz">siegfried@crossbows.biz</a>>,<br><span class=apple-tab-span> </span>"<a href="mailto:archers@seahorse.atlantia.sca.org">archers@seahorse.atlantia.sca.org</a>"<br><span class=apple-tab-span> </span><<a href="mailto:archers@seahorse.atlantia.sca.org">archers@seahorse.atlantia.sca.org</a>><br>Subject: Re: [Archers] Nature of peerage ... was: Re: Archers Digest,<br><span class=apple-tab-span> </span>Vol 101, Issue 25<br>Message-ID:<br><span class=apple-tab-span> </span><<a href="mailto:1329411306.91697.YahooMailNeo@web161703.mail.bf1.yahoo.com">1329411306.91697.YahooMailNeo@web161703.mail.bf1.yahoo.com</a>><br>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"<br><br>?<br>His Excellency Siegfried has me thinking about... zebras.? Yes, zebras - both horse and donkey,?but also neither.? I'll try to explain what I mean:<br>?<br>An archer will make his own "period bow & arrows" and then use them in competition (skill at martial art). But do the heavies make "period" armor to use in Crown Tourney?? Correct my ignorance if I'm wrong, but I believe they would still use foam inserts as padding or stainless steel, modern techniques to form metal, etc.? Same for personal combat techniques -?aren't most trained in how to use a?rattan "club" instead of a sword??Again, same for melee tactics on the field. Do we really use "period" tactics at Pennsic if they are not effective?<br>?<br>Maybe someone more knowledgable can flesh these thought out. It just seems to me that archery is like a zebra - portions of it fit into martial and the laurel, but not enough to actually belong to either group.<br>?<br>Cheers<br>Fen<br><br>Atlantian Archery. Nothing exists within 100 yards without our permission.<br>?<br><br><br>________________________________<br>From: Siegfried <<a href="mailto:siegfried@crossbows.biz">siegfried@crossbows.biz</a>><br>To: <a href="mailto:archers@seahorse.atlantia.sca.org">archers@seahorse.atlantia.sca.org</a> <br>Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2012 10:51 AM<br>Subject: [Archers] Nature of peerage ... was: Re: Archers Digest, Vol 101, Issue 25<br><br><br>...Where the one disconnect comes, is in the art/skill/science of the<br>activity itself.? IE, in the 'martial art' of "Skill at archery", or<br>"Skill at rapier".<br><br>...However, the 'gap' that is often trying to be addressed here.? Is<br>specifically the skill at the 'Martial Art' itself.? Being Amazing, at<br>the skill of fighting with a sword, or Amazing at the medieval art of<br>shooting a truly medieval crossbow or bow.<br><br>...Right now, it's that 'skill at martial art', that isn't being<br>recognized.? The Pelicans do not recognize it, because it's an 'art',<br>not a service.? The Laurel do not recognize it (though a decade ago<br>now, Society stated that they should), simply, and not their fault,<br>because it doesn't fit into the 'typical' mindset of the rest of the<br>Laurel arts, which revolve about research & creating physical items.<br><br>...However, this specific 'skill at a martial art' form, is recognized<br>specifically & solely for Armored Rattan Combat.? While yes, you need<br>(or should) have all the other characteristics of a Peer, comporting<br>oneself, teaching one's art, learning historical forms of one's art.<br><br>...Someone can be made a Peer, in this case a Knight, for the 'primary<br>reason' of their skill at medieval bladed combat, as represented by<br>rattan swords.<br><br>...However, if their chosen weapon that they want to perfect their skill<br>with, and their focus is that skill alone, is a Rapier.? Or is a<br>bow/crossbow.? Then they currently cannot be recognized the same way.<br>-------------- next part --------------<br>An HTML attachment was scrubbed...<br>URL: <<a href="http://seahorse.atlantia.sca.org/pipermail/archers-atlantia.sca.org/attachments/20120216/08a546c2/attachment.html">http://seahorse.atlantia.sca.org/pipermail/archers-atlantia.sca.org/attachments/20120216/08a546c2/attachment.html</a>><br><br>------------------------------<br><br>Message: 2<br>Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2012 12:31:23 -0500<br>From: "John Atkins" <<a href="mailto:cogworks@triad.rr.com">cogworks@triad.rr.com</a>><br>To: <<a href="mailto:archers@seahorse.atlantia.sca.org">archers@seahorse.atlantia.sca.org</a>><br>Subject: Re: [Archers] Nature of peerage<br>Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:008b01ccecd0$cdec2620$69c47260$@triad.rr.com">008b01ccecd0$cdec2620$69c47260$@triad.rr.com</a>><br>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"<br><br>Fen,<br><br>Once again, excellent point. If one has read Bernard Cornwell's books about<br>early England and the Northmen and particularly his descriptions of a true<br>shield wall then watching an SCA battle with a shield wall holds little, if<br>any, resemblance to the "real thing". Cornwell's shield walls are actual<br>walls with specific techniques. SCA shield walls are a bunch of SCA<br>fighters lined up shoulder to shoulder digressing into one on one battles<br>soon after "engagement". And more to the point, for an archer to become a<br>"peer" they should be known as making their bow, quiver, arm guard, string,<br>and arrows and fluent in the history of archery and done displays of<br>recreated archery gear? And a fighter is made a knight/peer because their<br>bought their armor, shield, weapon (let's be honest about how many heavies<br>actually make their own gear and how period it is) and "hit real gud with<br>it"?<br><br><br><br>OK, I'm missing something here..........<br><br><br><br>cog<br><br><br><br>From: <a href="mailto:archers-bounces@seahorse.atlantia.sca.org">archers-bounces@seahorse.atlantia.sca.org</a><br><a href="mailto:[mailto:archers-bounces@seahorse.atlantia.sca.org]">[mailto:archers-bounces@seahorse.atlantia.sca.org]</a> On Behalf Of Fen &<br>Michelle<br>Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2012 11:55 AM<br>To: Siegfried; <a href="mailto:archers@seahorse.atlantia.sca.org">archers@seahorse.atlantia.sca.org</a><br>Subject: Re: [Archers] Nature of peerage ... was: Re: Archers Digest, Vol<br>101, Issue 25<br><br><br><br><br><br>His Excellency Siegfried has me thinking about... zebras. Yes, zebras -<br>both horse and donkey, but also neither. I'll try to explain what I mean:<br><br><br><br>An archer will make his own "period bow & arrows" and then use them in<br>competition (skill at martial art). But do the heavies make "period" armor<br>to use in Crown Tourney? Correct my ignorance if I'm wrong, but I believe<br>they would still use foam inserts as padding or stainless steel, modern<br>techniques to form metal, etc. Same for personal combat techniques - aren't<br>most trained in how to use a rattan "club" instead of a sword? Again, same<br>for melee tactics on the field. Do we really use "period" tactics at Pennsic<br>if they are not effective?<br><br><br><br>Maybe someone more knowledgable can flesh these thought out. It just seems<br>to me that archery is like a zebra - portions of it fit into martial and the<br>laurel, but not enough to actually belong to either group.<br><br><br><br>Cheers<br><br>Fen<br><br><br><br>Atlantian Archery. Nothing exists within 100 yards without our permission.<br><br><br><br><br><br>From: Siegfried <<a href="mailto:siegfried@crossbows.biz">siegfried@crossbows.biz</a>><br>To: <a href="mailto:archers@seahorse.atlantia.sca.org">archers@seahorse.atlantia.sca.org</a> <br>Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2012 10:51 AM<br>Subject: [Archers] Nature of peerage ... was: Re: Archers Digest, Vol 101,<br>Issue 25<br><br><br>...Where the one disconnect comes, is in the art/skill/science of the<br>activity itself. IE, in the 'martial art' of "Skill at archery", or<br>"Skill at rapier".<br><br>...However, the 'gap' that is often trying to be addressed here. Is<br>specifically the skill at the 'Martial Art' itself. Being Amazing, at<br>the skill of fighting with a sword, or Amazing at the medieval art of<br>shooting a truly medieval crossbow or bow.<br><br>...Right now, it's that 'skill at martial art', that isn't being<br>recognized. The Pelicans do not recognize it, because it's an 'art',<br>not a service. The Laurel do not recognize it (though a decade ago<br>now, Society stated that they should), simply, and not their fault,<br>because it doesn't fit into the 'typical' mindset of the rest of the<br>Laurel arts, which revolve about research & creating physical items.<br><br><br><br>...However, this specific 'skill at a martial art' form, is recognized<br>specifically & solely for Armored Rattan Combat. While yes, you need<br>(or should) have all the other characteristics of a Peer, comporting<br>oneself, teaching one's art, learning historical forms of one's art.<br><br>...Someone can be made a Peer, in this case a Knight, for the 'primary<br>reason' of their skill at medieval bladed combat, as represented by<br>rattan swords.<br><br>...However, if their chosen weapon that they want to perfect their skill<br>with, and their focus is that skill alone, is a Rapier. Or is a<br>bow/crossbow. Then they currently cannot be recognized the same way.<br><br>-------------- next part --------------<br>An HTML attachment was scrubbed...<br>URL: <<a href="http://seahorse.atlantia.sca.org/pipermail/archers-atlantia.sca.org/attachments/20120216/2d93a942/attachment-0001.htm">http://seahorse.atlantia.sca.org/pipermail/archers-atlantia.sca.org/attachments/20120216/2d93a942/attachment-0001.htm</a>><br><br>------------------------------<br><br>_______________________________________________<br>Archers mailing list<br><a href="mailto:Archers@seahorse.atlantia.sca.org">Archers@seahorse.atlantia.sca.org</a><br><a href="http://seahorse.atlantia.sca.org/listinfo.cgi/archers-atlantia.sca.org">http://seahorse.atlantia.sca.org/listinfo.cgi/archers-atlantia.sca.org</a><br><br><br>End of Archers Digest, Vol 101, Issue 30<br>****************************************<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black'>Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black'>Jamie Frailey<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black'><a href="mailto:jamie@designbyfive.com">jamie@designbyfive.com</a><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black'>c. 443.834.8141<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black'>p. 443.615.7264<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black'>225 East Redwood Street, 3rd Floor<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black'>Baltimore, MD 21202<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black'><br><br></span><o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div></div></div></body></html>