[Ponte Alto] WMA and the SCA

[Charlotte Johnson]

Andrew, et al,

> 	This just sparked my interest.

Only now? ;-)

> Playing the Devil's Advocate here: Would it not make more sense, in the short
> term, to in fact pass it off (the Fiore et al part only) to a LH group if
> that is a better way to educate the kids?  Until we in the SCA figure the
> proper way to incorporate the WMA into our ranks it seems to me that this is
> a viable alternative.  The kids don't know, and I'll bet don't care, who is
> SCA and who is LH.  Remember to them, we are all LH!  :^)  

Perhaps it does make more sense. Either way, Scott would be doing the demo,
either in the name of the SCA or in the name of LH. To the kids it won't make a
difference. My point is, that to the teachers/administrators, they will have to
deal with a different group, and I see that as a detriment to the SCA, not to
the kids.

> The don't have the
> trained bias of who is more period and what is more period.  And frankly most
> of the items and stuff that PA fields at demos is equal to any LH group. 

Not having seen a PA demo, I don't know how true or not this is. I do know that
at previous demos, locals have taken my husband's armour in to demo. From what
I can tell, PA is much better than other groups I have seen undertake
educational demos, as there's considerable pressure here to 'get it right'. I
think many of us who have experienced demos with other groups can tell horror
stories of the misinformation that has been presented.

> Sorcha has done a *bunch* of demos for schools and such. I know most all of
> our stuff easily passes muster for real medieval authenticity, much less for
> the for the LH criteria. ;^)

Andrew, I don't think we should turn this, in any way, shape, or form, into an
SCA vs. LH discussion. They get ugly. :-(
 
> Ok, I gotta ask... who really cares what they may or may not think?  If some
> of the LH groups think we are medieval neophytes, fine.  If they think we
> shouldn't be doing demos, fine.  Why should we feel that we must somehow
> prove ourselves to their standard?  I think they do some things better than
> we do, and to those things we should defer to them.  But as far as demos go,
> let me state again--no one at the demos, aside from us, is going to know the
> difference.  As long as we are presenting fact and doing it correctly there
> is not a problem.

*I* care. And if you don't care about the public image of the SCA, that's fine
for you. If nothing else, we should care, in order to attraced talented members
to the society, and to attract good vendors to our events.

This is not a case of questioning the SCA standard. This is a case of somebody
who does want to present fact, and does want to do it correctly, and cannot do
it under the current rules, or at very least cannot do it if a marshal doesn't
also volunteer to attend the event.

> But as far as demos go,
> let me state again--no one at the demos, aside from us, is going to know the
> difference. 

I'm not entirely certain what you're referring to here? Can you clarify?
Difference between us and LH, or the difference between a correct piece of
information, and a "close to correct" piece of information? Please clarify,
because I tend to get rather prickly about anybody suggesting that the facts
don't matter, because the audience doesn't know anyway. I sincerely hope that's
not what you mean... :-/ And I only question it because I've personally seen it
happen at demos.

> I'd love to know of where this specifically has happened.  If someone can
> give some real, first-hand examples, I'd love to hear them.  If this is
> occurring in our ranks, we should fix it.  The WMA folks can bring a new
> level of understanding and participation to the SCA.  I, for one, would
> encourage and welcome it!

I don't really think it appropriate or polite to name names in a public forum.
I've had private conversations with some, I know of some by reputation. I'm
sorry if you cannot trust my word.

As Connor posted, there are some groups pursuing this. From my understanding of
the rules right now, this is a kingdom by kingdom issue. I sincerely hope that
some of the proposals that are open at the society level get ironed out.
 
> As for the WMA being used in SCA combat, I love when they come out and do
> that.  I hope they can one day figure out how to make it work.

Some people do it within the context of SCA combat. Most, though, that I'm aware
of, are not trying to make it something competitive that would happen in a list.
Most want to do demos, teach classes, and do this more within an A&S context of
period study.
 
> The issues are not as much red tape as they are issues of modern insurance
> and liability.  This is especially true when we deal with children.  If some
> think we are too careful about that, I'm truly sorry for their lack of
> understanding of the SCA's position.  But having real steel around children
> can be fraught with problems.

Wooden wasters. Not real steel. Even the "real steel", when used, is rebated,
which means that the edge can be no sharper than the edge of a penny (I
believe, but I know that they are not sharp and cannot cut). I think there's a
lack of understanding on both sides.

As a point of information, (as I think we're all trying to get the best info out
here...) that there are MANY groups that have real weapons, sharp and not, at
events. I'm not aware that there have ever been any problems. Members of the
public are not allowed to handle any sharp weapons, draw bows, or touch sharp
arrows. I think that many people imagine that introducing real weapons is a
very dangerous activity, while in reality, there have been no problems with it.
I believe that even within the context of an SCA demo, children are not allowed
to handle rattan? I could be wrong, please clarify.
 
> Also keep in mind that the WMA has as a part of it's nomenclature the "M"
> which stands for "martial."  Hence the reason it is , as you say, lumped in
> with the full speed heavy combat.  Make perfect sense actually.  

Also has "Arts" in the word. ;-) I understand that the marshallate has control
over "martial" activities within the SCA. Where I think the difference lies is
how it is performed. Is is actually a competitive, "live" activity? Or is is
studying forms, methods, with no actual competition, no winners and losers?

> >Instead of trying to change long standing tradition, they find it
> > easier and more satisfying to leave, because what they're doing 
> > is just TOO
> > MEDIEVAL. 
> 
> "Too Medieval?"  I'd love a working definition of this.  :^)  (I kid... I
> kid...)

:-D I know you're kidding, but I have always heard it said that "We do
everything that they would have done, except die of the plague". :-)
 
> Yeah, it does sound that way and that is unfortunate for both groups
> involved.  I know that the SCA tries to make everything we do accessable to
> all, but sometimes that must involve bureaucratic mumbo-jumbo to make it all
> legal.  We need to start working on including the WMA folks into our ranks. 
> I would love to try some of their "martial stuff" and see how it works.

I agree, and I think for the most part, we see eye to eye. 

> > Who is the poorer for it? The SCA.
> 
> No.  The kids we are trying to educate are the ones who are really missing
> out.  That is really sad, too.

If a LH group takes it over, the kids will not miss out.

Regards,
Mathilde