[MR] Another Tangent!!WO WO

[Christine Cooper]

By God, I do hope you meant lamentations.  Never in my life have I been laminated.  Nor do I plan to start, even if it would earn a war point for my kingdom.

All joking aside, I must point out that your post merely underscores the fact that the current organization of the SCA shortchanges rapier fighters.  They are not a full war point.  Why not?  Do they not fight with honor and slay their enemies?  Aye, they do, and with finesse, I might add.  Why, then, do we perpetuate a system which treats them as second-class citizens, as silly fops "pretending" to fight?  In my eleven years in the SCA, I have met far too many "stick jocks" who take this sneering attitude.  It's very easy for them, of course, since they know darned well that it is official policy:  rapier fighters aren't worth as much as heavy fighters.  High time we changed that policy, I'd say.

In for two more pennies (well on my way to a pound.)

Cristofana di Lorenzo
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: MR W 
  To: Thorgrimm at aol.com ; atlantia 
  Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2002 5:37 PM
  Subject: [MR] Another Tangent!!WO WO



  Well, seems we have another interesting discusion going, Rattan Thugs versus Wireweeneis.

       Having tried fencing and Heavy, I found that the fencing was the easier to pick up. Brother Hrothgar and I talked far into the night on this, and we noted from observation that about 2 years is required on the average for a Heavy to get decent skills, and about 3 months for a fencer. Having a martial arts or wrestling background helps more with fencing then heavy. A martial art teaches you to use both hands basically mirroring themselves. Heavy uses a shield that requires a differant set of movements unique to heavy. Fencing is also cheaper, not as smelly, and not as much weight. This would be attractive to someone new coming in. In this I find a difficulty, the splitting of resources (i.e new people).

     I hold it very dear to my heart that when I step out at Pennsic and put my old body in harms way for that War point that I am doing Service to my King, and everyone in my Kingdom. The Atlantian Army is for Atlantia, we all fight for the common glory. Fencers are not a Full War point, every person that does nothing but fencing is taking away from the Kingdom as a whole. Even people who do nothing but A&S or service, never want to get sweaty and bruised, have a place in their hearts of pride in the Kingdom Army. The Army also appreciates them, when they hump water to us, or sing songs on the Armies deeds. They contribute to the Atlantean Army in winning that warpoint, and the War.

     I have a lot   of respect for those fencers that pick up a spear or bow and go out with the Army into the woods and onto the field. The only time they get full armor on is when the war horn is sounded. They are not the biggest guys, they don't need to be. We have a lot of youngsters and old bulls to keep the shield wall up for them to work behind. THese fencers/spearmen have the heart and courage to go out here and risk themselves right along side we grunts, and a lot of them are pretty damn good. That is why I feel that all fencers should try to pick up the spear, or archery, or even siege weapons. {Heck, I don't care as long as you help take out the bad guy trying to take my head off!} My god, what a Army we could put out then.

     On the reverse, if ever Fencing gets to be a full War point at Pennsic, I am going to be right out there with a schlager and help those fencers that stood at my side, my Army's, and my King's. Everyone of the MArinus Warband would be out there too, and I would even pressure my Brother Hrothgar. 

  Earning a War point is fighting for your Kingdom.

     So, fence all you want, that is you right. We can joke at each other and have that friendly rivalry. However, listen for the sound of Fair Atlantia calling, "To war, my brave warriors, to war." Step out with spear in hand to slay our Kingdoms enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamination of the women. 

  A Kingdom united can never fall.



        ----- Original Message -----
    From: Thorgrimm at aol.com
    Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2002 9:58 AM
    To: atlantia at atlantia.sca.org
    Subject: Re: [MR] Tangent: was: Why should Atlantia care was: Re:Curiosity

    In a message dated 2/6/02 8:53:12 AM Eastern Standard Time, BWilliamson at extstay.com writes: 



      don't 
      knock it until you've tried it


      I have tried it. I was one of the many well meaning folks six or seven years ago who were pushing fencing as a good alternative for people who couldn't fight. I saw it as a way for small or otherwise physically challenged people to get a taste of what it's like for us on the field. But comparing it to fighting is to compare tofu to steak. 
     It never occurred to me that people would decide to do it instead of fighting and then try to convince people it's on the same level. The fact that so many people think there should be a "rapier king" or that there should be a special peerage created just proves that the whole thing has gotten out of hand. 
      The SCA structure is based on armored combat. I don't think we can continue to attempt the support of two martial styles. I believe it is at the root of a lot of our recruitment problems because it sends out vastly differing images to someone on the outside looking in. You have on the one hand the chivalry and glory of combat, the knight in armor that is at the base of everyone's vision of the middle ages, and on the other a game of tag being played with 19th and 20th Century accouterments. 
      The only period duels I have been able to document were fought in armor with legitimate weapons. The majority of the manuals which are cited as proving that fencing is period use broadswords, great swords, and a technique that would require more armor than we use. 
       I agree that schlager is a far more reasonable replication of a period weapon. Unfortunately, you can't use it the way it's meant to be used with the current fencing armor standards. But I'll argue with you about the audience. Whenever I've seen fencing and fighting simultaneously occurring near each other, the vast majority of people in the crowd are watching the fighting. Regardless of how you try to convince yourself otherwise, fighting is more exciting to watch. It might please you to think that folks are watching your exploits with rapt attention, but it usually isn't the case. 

    Hrothgar 


       
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