[Archers] fourth peerage.

Wed Feb 15 17:15:43 PST 2012

Would that be the one on his big toe

Ivarr 

Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4GLTE smartphone

----- Reply message -----
From: loreleielkins at aol.com
To: <pjdarby at verizon.net>, <archers at atlantia.sca.org>
Subject: [Archers] fourth peerage.
Date: Wed, Feb 15, 2012 6:33 pm
Colum gets the "Nail on the Head" award.  And, thank you.

Lorelei

-----Original Message-----

From: pjdarby <pjdarby at verizon.net>

To: archers <archers at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org>

Sent: Wed, Feb 15, 2012 3:32 pm

Subject: [Archers] fourth peerage.

I sent in my email.  It is rather lengthy and I tried to stick with facts.  If anyone is interested I could post it here.  But one ot the reasons I put forth is that in any group recognition is an important part of the group.  In the SCA we have three peerages and most things people can do will fit into one of them quite neatly.  And judging by the number of combat archers who have become knights (0) fletchers and bowyers who have become Laurels (0) and archery shoot organizers, target builders etc. who have become Pelicans (0) we don't fit into any of those categories.   So where do we fit.  A top of the line archer in Atlantia knows its history, knows how to shoot, build arrows, strings and at least the attributes of a good quiver, bow and how to run an event.  They have an interest in teaching those skills and often give up shooting to do so.   Yet there is no place in the peerage for archers.  You would be hard pressed to find a top archer in Atlantia that hasn't done what most of the "peers" have done to earn their peerage.  You want to talk prowess on the battlefield.  Compare the number of kills between any Duke and Shamus or Godai and Jaynen, yet their knighthoods are curiously absent.  I have been published in a national archery magazine, taught almost every archery skill at universities and on the field and that includes history.  I have a Silver Nautilus for archery yet strangely enough I haven't had to turn down any requests to become a Laurel this week. And if you think I have done some stuff you should read Seigrieds crossbow efforts in the artistic realm, not to mention Mors.  Let's discuss the Leader of our brotherhood of archers.  If you don't know what she has done in service to archery then you shouldn't be reading this.  Yet her name is curiously absent from the roles of the Pelican.    But even if the archers were wholeheartedly accepted into the peerage.  You still wouldn't know why they got their medallion.  If I get recognized as an archer I want it to be for the whole package, not just a piece and our own peerage would do that.  I am not so sure that is so out of line when you consider that Atlantia has no exclusive archery awards.  Now when someone says they are a yew bow you have to ask what they got it for.  I bet no knight has ever been asked that question.  It is kind of ironic when you consider we are the only martial discipline in the SCA that uses real weapons exactly like it was done over the last 30 thousand years or so.  Real knights didn't go into battle with stick instead of swords or rubber tips on their rapiers.  I have taken  small game with my field points and big game with the sharp points..

The most important thing in the SCA is "What I do" whether that is brewing, fighting storytelling or anything else I have a passion for.  To deliberately leave those people out of the peerage is not the behavior I would expect in a peer.

Baron Colum

Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2012 11:07:06 -0500

From: "John Atkins" <cogworks at triad.rr.com>

To: "'Jamie Frailey'" <jamie at designbyfive.com>,

<loreleielkins at aol.com>

Cc: archers at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org

Subject: Re: [Archers] Archers Digest, Vol 101, Issue 16

Message-ID: <006201ccebfb$dd01c0a0$970541e0$@triad.rr.com>

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

I don't know that a fourth peerage including archers really makes archers

"part of chivalry". Are laurels and pelicans part of chiv? "I stab you

with my knitting needle!" Peerage to me simply means that an individual has

reached the highest possible level of their craft within the SCA. Sad to

say, but I know of "knights" who don't even have a defined persona, but they

sure fight well.... To me, peers are individuals that represent what we

should all be striving to achieve in this game. Sadly, not all peers fit

that model.

The other and perhaps main factor against a fourth peerage is the obvious,

the SCA is run by the Chivalry. Our system of selecting kings proves the

point. Historically this is NOT always how kings were selected. Yes, yes,

heritage, but also the individual who was the best leader and organizer and

commanded loyalty became the king. The Mongols are an example culture and

look what they accomplished. But in the SCA only a heavy fighter, and often

only one who is a knight, sits the throne. I have had many discussions with

heavies, not just members of the chiv, about the animosity against archers.

I understand their point of view. Archers take people out at distance and

the heavy "never even gets to hit them". They don't like that. Most

heavies think being able to hit a 4 inch target at 20 , 30, 40 yards or more

is easy. We archers know the truth of that. But the perception is that

when you are too old to fight heavy, you take up archery. The perception

that archery was NEVER done by nobles in period also exists, wrong, but

exists.

Thus the deck is stacked against archers ever having their own peerage or

being "equals" with the chiv based on stupidity, ignorance of history, and

bias. But, as evidenced by Janyn recently and Lorelei in the past, as well

as many others on this list, could an archer not be recognized for their

"art form" by being elevated to a laurel? Let's be honest, most archers who

we all look up to make a lot of their own gear and do a beautiful job of it

and can talk for hours about the history of their craft. Are these not

attributes of a laurel? Archers come much closer to sheep-to-shawl than

most laurels have.

Just my two cents worth,

cog

From: archers-bounces at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org

[mailto:archers-bounces at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org] On Behalf Of Jamie

Frailey

Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2012 10:03 AM

To: loreleielkins at aol.com

Cc: archers at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org

Subject: Re: [Archers] Archers Digest, Vol 101, Issue 16

I think the problem with archers is that the Chiv does consider archery a

chivalric weapons form. I think if you break it down one can see that might

be true since there is no close engagement. But archers behavior and the

investment in our discipline certainly is chivalric.

On Feb 15, 2012, at 6:27 AM, loreleielkins at aol.com wrote:

I think that one of the issues was the the Chiv was so unitedly opposed to

including archers included in a 4th peerage. :-) I guess we scare them.

But, draw your own conclusions. The survey and results are posted at

<http://www.sca.org> www.sca.org. It is an interesting read. 

Lorelei

-----Original Message-----

From: Janyn Fletcher < <mailto:janynfletcher at comcast.net>

janynfletcher at comcast.net>

To: loreleielkins < <mailto:loreleielkins at aol.com> loreleielkins at aol.com>;

jamie < <mailto:jamie at designbyfive.com> jamie at designbyfive.com>; archers <

<mailto:archers at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org>

archers at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org>

Sent: Tue, Feb 14, 2012 8:45 pm

Subject: RE: [Archers] Archers Digest, Vol 101, Issue 16

Sent mine a few minutes ago. I had heard at Pennsic that the positive

responses were less than 50% and maybe this is why they are asking for more

support? This confuses me because I could not imagine any active and

involved archers not supporting this??? Lorelei is right, now is the time to

be heard. Take a minute and send your thoughts in.

YIS, Janyn

Regards,

Jamie Frailey

<mailto:jamie at designbyfive.com> jamie at designbyfive.com

c. 443.834.8141

p. 443.615.7264

225 East Redwood Street, 3rd Floor

Baltimore, MD 21202

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Message: 2

Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2012 11:26:19 -0500

From: "John Atkins" <cogworks at triad.rr.com>

To: "'Fen & Michelle'" <mobishob at yahoo.com>, "'Jamie Frailey'"

<jamie at designbyfive.com>, <archers at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org>

Subject: Re: [Archers] Archers Digest, Vol 101, Issue 19

Message-ID: <007601ccebfe$8c565370$a502fa50$@triad.rr.com>

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Fen, I could not agree with you MORE! In one long discussion with a new

Trimarian knight, it became obvious, and even stated by the new knight, that

to become a knight there was one criteria, fight well. Garb, chivalry,

participation in the other arts, even knowing some history, not required.

Just hit people really well. In my 18 years in this club I too have seen it

go from an historical re-enactment club to a fight club that wears funny

clothes.

Why, is the question. I think it is because those of us who have been

around for a long time have not done a good job of schooling the new folks.

We have allowed a slack standard. Imagine a person standing in front of a

king who was a stickler on "trying to be period", wearing mundane clothes at

a very large SCA event saying "I don't like garb, it isn't comfortable."

That person should have been taken aside and talked to. (Not trying to be

an AH here but if one attends a large SCA event then one should at least

make a decent attempt at period garb.) If they chose to persist with their

mundane choices fine, but they should also have it made known to them the

effect they are having on the rest of us.

So I believe it falls upon us to teach the new folks a higher standard, and

push to accept only that higher standard. Does that mean everyone has to

wear a $500 pair of boots? No. It does mean that wearing white Nikes

should be pointed out as not acceptable. Yes. There are low cost

solutions. In my area I have started a program with this as one of its main

objectives. I can't change the thinking of the chiv, but I can lead by

example and gather folks about me who are like thinking. In my delusional

state, I like to think that this group will become a group others would like

to become members of and thereby improve a small aspect of this club.

Just as a side note - I was asked, a few years back, by another small

re-enactment group to attend one of their events to provide archery. They

had no one who could do that and they wanted to get it started. I went. I

was most impressed by their standard of "everyone must appear period from at

least 10 feet away". So I made a point of attending their events in my most

period looking garb. I even bought an ELB to complete the kit (of course

other reasons as well, but we won't go there here). I saw people wearing

cheap cotton tunics over camo cargo pants. I hit the wall when their

"prince" was holding "court" while wearing Teva sandals. When I confronted

him about it I got the old "they're more comfortable". Birkenstocks I could

accept as a valid attempt at appearing period, but Teva? I considered doing

an A&S project "proving" that Tevas were period because they have inkle

produced trim as straps, etc. (Things like this tend to bring out the worst

in me!) Needless to say I no longer participate with the group as I can get

that right here in the SCA.

cog

From: archers-bounces at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org

[mailto:archers-bounces at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org] On Behalf Of Fen &

Michelle

Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2012 10:52 AM

To: Jamie Frailey; archers at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org

Subject: Re: [Archers] Archers Digest, Vol 101, Issue 19

I'm agnostic on this one. Back in the 80s I did heavy and watched my Knight

go through the process - from unbelt to Count to Squire, then Duke and

finally Knight. It was an arduous journey.

I don't want to be one of those "back in the day" types, but the standards

have really slipped since then. There are Knights running around now that

have no business wearing the belt. And I wish there was a way to yank belts

from those subpar knights (other than felony charges).

For our own crowd, I can already think of a handful of shooters that are

worthy. Although some are already squires or peers. But I would support a

peerage for archery IF the candidates were squired out to heavy weapon

Knights of good character. I strongly believe the first generation should be

well-schooled in all aspects of the Chivalry - Seven Virtues, chess,

dancing, etc. That way we have a strong foundation to pass on to the next

generation, and our peers will be less likey to stray from the "righteous"

path.

But reading between the lines of the census summary, it looks as if (at

best) they will create a peerage for rapier only. Then table the discussion

for several more years. Not trying to rain on any parades - just don't want

us to get our hopes up only to lose people to disappointment and

frustration.

Cheers

Fen

Atlantian Archery. Nothing exists within 100 yards without our permission.

From: Jamie Frailey <jamie at designbyfive.com>

To: archers at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org 

Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2012 10:35 AM

Subject: Re: [Archers] Archers Digest, Vol 101, Issue 19

I don't know but I think it would be very cool to be part of the Chiv. What

is great about the SCA is there is something for everyone. What is so cool

about archery (Extremely large community) you can get what ever you want

out of it. 

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