[Archers] fourth peerage.

Wed Feb 15 13:21:11 PST 2012

As usual, Very well said Colum.

cog

From: archers-bounces at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org [mailto:archers-bounces at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org] On Behalf Of pjdarby at verizon.net
Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2012 3:31 PM
To: archers at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org
Subject: [Archers] fourth peerage.

 I sent in my email.  It is rather lengthy and I tried to stick with facts.  If anyone is interested I could post it here.  But one ot the reasons I put forth is that in any group recognition is an important part of the group.  In the SCA we have three peerages and most things people can do will fit into one of them quite neatly.  And judging by the number of combat archers who have become knights (0) fletchers and bowyers who have become Laurels (0) and archery shoot organizers, target builders etc. who have become Pelicans (0) we don't fit into any of those categories.   So where do we fit.  A top of the line archer in Atlantia knows its history, knows how to shoot, build arrows, strings and at least the attributes of a good quiver, bow and how to run an event.  They have an interest in teaching those skills and often give up shooting to do so.   Yet there is no place in the peerage for archers.  You would be hard pressed to find a top archer in Atlantia that hasn't done what most of the "peers" have done to earn their peerage.  You want to talk prowess on the battlefield.  Compare the number of kills between any Duke and Shamus or Godai and Jaynen, yet their knighthoods are curiously absent.  I have been published in a national archery magazine, taught almost every archery skill at universities and on the field and that includes history.  I have a Silver Nautilus for archery yet strangely enough I haven't had to turn down any requests to become a Laurel this week. And if you think I have done some stuff you should read Seigrieds crossbow efforts in the artistic realm, not to mention Mors.  Let's discuss the Leader of our brotherhood of archers.  If you don't know what she has done in service to archery then you shouldn't be reading this.  Yet her name is curiously absent from the roles of the Pelican.    But even if the archers were wholeheartedly accepted into the peerage.  You still wouldn't know why they got their medallion.  If I get recognized as an archer I want it to be for the whole package, not just a piece and our own peerage would do that.  I am not so sure that is so out of line when you consider that Atlantia has no exclusive archery awards.  Now when someone says they are a yew bow you have to ask what they got it for.  I bet no knight has ever been asked that question.  It is kind of ironic when you consider we are the only martial discipline in the SCA that uses real weapons exactly like it was done over the last 30 thousand years or so.  Real knights didn't go into battle with stick instead of swords or rubber tips on their rapiers.  I have taken  small game with my field points and big game with the sharp points.

 The most important thing in the SCA is "What I do" whether that is brewing, fighting storytelling or anything else I have a passion for.  To deliberately leave those people out of the peerage is not the behavior I would expect in a peer.

Baron Colum

 Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2012 11:07:06 -0500
From: "John Atkins" <cogworks at triad.rr.com>
To: "'Jamie Frailey'" <jamie at designbyfive.com>,
<loreleielkins at aol.com>
Cc: archers at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org
Subject: Re: [Archers] Archers Digest, Vol 101, Issue 16
Message-ID: <006201ccebfb$dd01c0a0$970541e0$@triad.rr.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

I don't know that a fourth peerage including archers really makes archers
"part of chivalry". Are laurels and pelicans part of chiv? "I stab you
with my knitting needle!" Peerage to me simply means that an individual has
reached the highest possible level of their craft within the SCA. Sad to
say, but I know of "knights" who don't even have a defined persona, but they
sure fight well.... To me, peers are individuals that represent what we
should all be striving to achieve in this game. Sadly, not all peers fit
that model.

The other and perhaps main factor against a fourth peerage is the obvious,
the SCA is run by the Chivalry. Our system of selecting kings proves the
point. Historically this is NOT always how kings were selected. Yes, yes,
heritage, but also the individual who was the best leader and organizer and
commanded loyalty became the king. The Mongols are an example culture and
look what they accomplished. But in the SCA only a heavy fighter, and often
only one who is a knight, sits the throne. I have had many discussions with
heavies, not just members of the chiv, about the animosity against archers.
I understand their point of view. Archers take people out at distance and
the heavy "never even gets to hit them". They don't like that. Most
heavies think being able to hit a 4 inch target at 20 , 30, 40 yards or more
is easy. We archers know the truth of that. But the perception is that
when you are too old to fight heavy, you take up archery. The perception
that archery was NEVER done by nobles in period also exists, wrong, but
exists.

Thus the deck is stacked against archers ever having their own peerage or
being "equals" with the chiv based on stupidity, ignorance of history, and
bias. But, as evidenced by Janyn recently and Lorelei in the past, as well
as many others on this list, could an archer not be recognized for their
"art form" by being elevated to a laurel? Let's be honest, most archers who
we all look up to make a lot of their own gear and do a beautiful job of it
and can talk for hours about the history of their craft. Are these not
attributes of a laurel? Archers come much closer to sheep-to-shawl than
most laurels have.

Just my two cents worth,

cog

From: archers-bounces at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org
[mailto:archers-bounces at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org] On Behalf Of Jamie
Frailey
Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2012 10:03 AM
To: loreleielkins at aol.com
Cc: archers at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org
Subject: Re: [Archers] Archers Digest, Vol 101, Issue 16

I think the problem with archers is that the Chiv does consider archery a
chivalric weapons form. I think if you break it down one can see that might
be true since there is no close engagement. But archers behavior and the
investment in our discipline certainly is chivalric.

On Feb 15, 2012, at 6:27 AM, loreleielkins at aol.com wrote:

I think that one of the issues was the the Chiv was so unitedly opposed to
including archers included in a 4th peerage. :-) I guess we scare them.
But, draw your own conclusions. The survey and results are posted at
<http://www.sca.org <http://www.sca.org/> > www.sca.org. <http://www.sca.org./>  It is an interesting read. 

Lorelei

-----Original Message-----
From: Janyn Fletcher < <mailto:janynfletcher at comcast.net>
janynfletcher at comcast.net>
To: loreleielkins < <mailto:loreleielkins at aol.com> loreleielkins at aol.com>;
jamie < <mailto:jamie at designbyfive.com> jamie at designbyfive.com>; archers <
<mailto:archers at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org>
archers at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org>
Sent: Tue, Feb 14, 2012 8:45 pm
Subject: RE: [Archers] Archers Digest, Vol 101, Issue 16

Sent mine a few minutes ago. I had heard at Pennsic that the positive
responses were less than 50% and maybe this is why they are asking for more
support? This confuses me because I could not imagine any active and
involved archers not supporting this??? Lorelei is right, now is the time to
be heard. Take a minute and send your thoughts in.

YIS, Janyn

Regards,

Jamie Frailey

<mailto:jamie at designbyfive.com> jamie at designbyfive.com

c. 443.834.8141

p. 443.615.7264

225 East Redwood Street, 3rd Floor

Baltimore, MD 21202

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://seahorse.atlantia.sca.org/pipermail/archers-atlantia.sca.org/attachments/20120215/4a98882a/attachment-0001.htm>

------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2012 11:26:19 -0500
From: "John Atkins" <cogworks at triad.rr.com>
To: "'Fen & Michelle'" <mobishob at yahoo.com>, "'Jamie Frailey'"
<jamie at designbyfive.com>, <archers at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org>
Subject: Re: [Archers] Archers Digest, Vol 101, Issue 19
Message-ID: <007601ccebfe$8c565370$a502fa50$@triad.rr.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Fen, I could not agree with you MORE! In one long discussion with a new
Trimarian knight, it became obvious, and even stated by the new knight, that
to become a knight there was one criteria, fight well. Garb, chivalry,
participation in the other arts, even knowing some history, not required.
Just hit people really well. In my 18 years in this club I too have seen it
go from an historical re-enactment club to a fight club that wears funny
clothes.

Why, is the question. I think it is because those of us who have been
around for a long time have not done a good job of schooling the new folks.
We have allowed a slack standard. Imagine a person standing in front of a
king who was a stickler on "trying to be period", wearing mundane clothes at
a very large SCA event saying "I don't like garb, it isn't comfortable."
That person should have been taken aside and talked to. (Not trying to be
an AH here but if one attends a large SCA event then one should at least
make a decent attempt at period garb.) If they chose to persist with their
mundane choices fine, but they should also have it made known to them the
effect they are having on the rest of us.

So I believe it falls upon us to teach the new folks a higher standard, and
push to accept only that higher standard. Does that mean everyone has to
wear a $500 pair of boots? No. It does mean that wearing white Nikes
should be pointed out as not acceptable. Yes. There are low cost
solutions. In my area I have started a program with this as one of its main
objectives. I can't change the thinking of the chiv, but I can lead by
example and gather folks about me who are like thinking. In my delusional
state, I like to think that this group will become a group others would like
to become members of and thereby improve a small aspect of this club.

Just as a side note - I was asked, a few years back, by another small
re-enactment group to attend one of their events to provide archery. They
had no one who could do that and they wanted to get it started. I went. I
was most impressed by their standard of "everyone must appear period from at
least 10 feet away". So I made a point of attending their events in my most
period looking garb. I even bought an ELB to complete the kit (of course
other reasons as well, but we won't go there here). I saw people wearing
cheap cotton tunics over camo cargo pants. I hit the wall when their
"prince" was holding "court" while wearing Teva sandals. When I confronted
him about it I got the old "they're more comfortable". Birkenstocks I could
accept as a valid attempt at appearing period, but Teva? I considered doing
an A&S project "proving" that Tevas were period because they have inkle
produced trim as straps, etc. (Things like this tend to bring out the worst
in me!) Needless to say I no longer participate with the group as I can get
that right here in the SCA.

cog

From: archers-bounces at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org
[mailto:archers-bounces at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org] On Behalf Of Fen &
Michelle
Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2012 10:52 AM
To: Jamie Frailey; archers at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org
Subject: Re: [Archers] Archers Digest, Vol 101, Issue 19

I'm agnostic on this one. Back in the 80s I did heavy and watched my Knight
go through the process - from unbelt to Count to Squire, then Duke and
finally Knight. It was an arduous journey.

I don't want to be one of those "back in the day" types, but the standards
have really slipped since then. There are Knights running around now that
have no business wearing the belt. And I wish there was a way to yank belts
from those subpar knights (other than felony charges).

For our own crowd, I can already think of a handful of shooters that are
worthy. Although some are already squires or peers. But I would support a
peerage for archery IF the candidates were squired out to heavy weapon
Knights of good character. I strongly believe the first generation should be
well-schooled in all aspects of the Chivalry - Seven Virtues, chess,
dancing, etc. That way we have a strong foundation to pass on to the next
generation, and our peers will be less likey to stray from the "righteous"
path.

But reading between the lines of the census summary, it looks as if (at
best) they will create a peerage for rapier only. Then table the discussion
for several more years. Not trying to rain on any parades - just don't want
us to get our hopes up only to lose people to disappointment and
frustration.

Cheers

Fen

Atlantian Archery. Nothing exists within 100 yards without our permission.

From: Jamie Frailey <jamie at designbyfive.com>
To: archers at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org 
Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2012 10:35 AM
Subject: Re: [Archers] Archers Digest, Vol 101, Issue 19

I don't know but I think it would be very cool to be part of the Chiv. What
is great about the SCA is there is something for everyone. What is so cool
about archery (Extremely large community) you can get what ever you want
out of it. 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://seahorse.atlantia.sca.org/pipermail/archers-atlantia.sca.org/attachments/20120215/baeb3d43/attachment.htm>

------------------------------

_______________________________________________
Archers mailing list
Archers at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org
http://seahorse.atlantia.sca.org/listinfo.cgi/archers-atlantia.sca.org

End of Archers Digest, Vol 101, Issue 21
****************************************

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://seahorse.atlantia.sca.org/pipermail/archers-atlantia.sca.org/attachments/20120215/7df53add/attachment-0003.htm>