[Archers] Legality of 3Rivers large bodkins

Thu Mar 17 21:26:17 PDT 2011

Well said.  

I have a yew longbow on order from Master Yumi and I have been working on period looking arrows to match it.  I entered my first footed shaft (with a bodkin from historic enterprises) in the persona pentathlon two months ago.  I plan to keep making better period arrows and would be most disappointed if they were banned.  Bodkins look so much better than modern field tips and do no more damage.  

Yes, they may penetrate nets (and armor) better, but I seem to recall that nets are not a substitute for distance behind a target.  I would like to try bodkins against a net to see the effect.  If they do punch through significantly better than other tips, then they should not be used against nets.  Against hay or straw, it should be about the same.

We should promote, not discourage, more period equipment.

Geoffrey ~
(the Baron, not the other Geoffrey....)

-----Original Message-----
From: Allen Miller <wolfhou at hotmail.com>
To: whitegrifn <whitegrifn at aol.com>; Loreie Elkins <loreleielkins at aol.com>; Garth <ggg9y at virginia.edu>; archers <archers at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org>
Sent: Thu, Mar 17, 2011 8:10 am
Subject: Re: [Archers] Legality of 3Rivers large bodkins

Ladies and gentlemen

I have used the three rivers large bodkins and find that they work well against the targets that I make stuffed with plastic bags they also make little more damage against the cardboard and foam backing targets which we use here in Sudentorre.  If you want to shoot them on ranges which I set up and run please do so. I think that they look so much better and the additional damage is minimal.  The only place where I find potentially significant additional damage is when you hit the wooden frames and they can be a bear to remove. 

I would also suggest that we should be encouraging to the extent possible anything which gives such a great medieval feel to our efforts. 

As one of out past kings said we are at our best when we encourage people to find ways to try things not making rules to stop them.  The questions should be: 1. is it safe, 2 is it medieval, 3 does it enhance what we do, 4 then look at the costs. For the large bodkin points I think that the answers are Yes, Yes, Yes at minimal additional costs. 

I would suggest that we should allow them. If you are the MIC and feel that your targets will take too much damage, you may ask that they not be used on your range. 

Allen

From: Whitegrifn at aol.com
To: loreleielkins at aol.com; ggg9y at virginia.edu; Archers at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org
Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 21:25:16 -0400
Subject: Re: [Archers] Legality of 3Rivers large bodkins

Greetings All,
I have some of these 3Rivers bodkin points, and while I haven't used them on arrows yet, I have shot some similar period style bodkin points into a couple of types of (my own) targets without significant damage, but I have intentionally avoided other types.  Part of my concern has been the potential difficulty of removing the arrow from a tightly packed target material, since the bodkins I was shooting had sockets larger than the shaft, but that shouldn't be a problem with the 3Rivers points.  I have found that haybails or target butts made of stacked layers of foam work well for bodkins.  I have also shot a swallowtail broadhead into a pumpkin, but that's another story.   

As for using these points in an SCA target shoot , I would leave it to the discretion of the MiC and the owner of the targets. The risk of damage all depends on the type of material the target is made of, and how much the owner of the target cares about reusing it.  If they consider the damage to their targets acceptable, I don't think we should prohibit it.  The rule says "No broadheads or tips that cause excessive damage to the targets shall be used ...." .  As was pointed out, these are not broadheads, and if the owner of the target considers the damage to be acceptable, then be definition it is not excessive.  Of course, if the targets happen to be balloons or clay pigeons, then I would say that no amount of damage would be excessive. 

I would encourage anyone who would like to use arrows of this type to make some and bring them to events, as long as they fully understand that they might not be able to use them at most events, and that they are willing to accept the decision of the MiC/target owners without argument.

Tnek

From: archers-bounces at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org [mailto:archers-bounces at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org] On Behalf Of loreleielkins at aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2011 1:06 PM
To: ggg9y at virginia.edu; Archers at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org
Subject: Re: [Archers] Legality of 3Rivers large bodkins

My mistake Lord Mungo.  I read your message too quickly, I apologize.  

 I know the points you are talking about and they do indeed damage the targets.  This might be one of those, "at the discretion of the MiC", since it is more than likely the MiC's targets which are being shot up.  While I agree that they are nice for the period look, I wouldn't encourage their use, just because they can potentially cause so much damage.  Now if we had some nice period targets to shoot at.....

Anyone else have thoughts on this?

Lorelei

-----Original Message-----
From: Garth G. Groff <ggg9y at virginia.edu>
To: Archers <Archers at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org>
Sent: Tue, Mar 15, 2011 8:15 am
Subject: Re: [Archers] Legality of 3Rivers large bodkins

Lady Lorelei and friends,

But these are not broadheads, just big bodkins, actually weighing about 180 grains and about 3/8" across. Some archers might think they are legal because they AREN'T broadheads. If somebody shows up with these on our range, I am going to take a literal interpretation of the Society rule: "No broadheads or tips that cause excessive damage to the targets shall be used ...."  3Rivers also sells a smaller version at about 140 grains which I haven't measured. I think the damage potential would be similar.

If anyone just has to shoot traditional arrows, they can still use the 125-grain Ace faux medieval points or the equivalent that 3Rivers and some English vendors offer (so-called "mod-bods"). These have always been legal in Atlantia, AFAIK. I can't see why anybody would want to shoot such heavy points with our light target bows anyway. Their arrows would drop like a stone.

Too bad in a way, because those big bodkins are really cool points. I have them on my 3/8" living history arrows, but those shafts are only for display and looking cool in my quiver at demonstrations.

Kind regards,

Lord Mungo, Shire of Isenfir TA Marshal

On 3/15/2011 11:48 AM, loreleielkins at aol.com wrote: 
Greetings!  Yes, you nailed it.  Target points should be used on archery targets.  Target backs can be expensive.  Broadheads are meant to penetrate flesh, not foam.  :-) 

-----Original Message-----
From: Garth G. Groff <ggg9y at virginia.edu>
To: Archers <Archers at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org>
Sent: Tue, Mar 15, 2011 7:45 am
Subject: [Archers] Legality of 3Rivers large bodkins

Noble friends of the bow,Lorelei

The question was raised in my recent TA Marshal class about the legality 
of the 3Rivers large bodkins. These are very large, and look like they 
might do a lot of damage to a target. Does anyone have any views on 
these, vis-vis the Society rule against broadheads because of their 
potential to rip up a target?

Kind regards,

Lord Mungo Napier, Shire of Isenfir Target Archery Marshal
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