[Archers] Re; St. Sebastian prize at Pennsic XL

Mon Nov 1 19:17:09 PDT 2010

Dear Atalntian Archers:

COG: I hear that you wish to sit on the sidelines, and I must say that if you 
cannot bring a positive energy to our efforts, or a rational voice to our 
discussions (judging by "kit"?) it is for the best. Thank you for bowing out. It 
is gracious of you.

To reiterate, in defensive response to the tirades, every archer among us would 
like a broad and open shoot, but dreams must also have a root in real soil. We 
must aim for what we can reasonably achieve. There already exists a populace 
shoot. I do not wish to reinvent that wheel: we cannot upstage, outdo, or 
replicate the existing archery activities at Pennsic. If we take that tack, we 
are dead in the water.

Our point of dissention seems to be over mathematical projections. We may not 
need to limit the number of archers after all - - that remains to be seen and is 
not a vital point in our discussion. But the question apparently is indeed 
a nexus of great contention among us.  I am neither here nor there in judging 
the relative merits of "elitism,"  I am merely trying to dwell in the realm of 
possibilty.

Nuala of Needwood Forest

________________________________
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Sent: Mon, November 1, 2010 9:38:32 PM
Subject: Archers Digest, Vol 86, Issue 1

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Today's Topics:

  1. the St. Sebastian Prize at Pennsic XL (Holly Gibbons)
  2. Re: the St. Sebastian Prize at Pennsic XL (Janyn Fletcher)
  3. Re: the St. Sebastian Prize at Pennsic XL (cogworks at triad.rr.com)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2010 16:44:15 -0700 (PDT)
From: Holly Gibbons <holly0920 at yahoo.com>
To: archers at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org
Subject: [Archers] the St. Sebastian Prize at Pennsic XL
Message-ID: <803473.86813.qm at web111620.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

To the?Scattered?Archers of Atlantia:
?
Thanks for weighing in on the Pennsic question, COG. Experience is always the 
best teacher. Even though I am rather a new kid on the block, I refuse to be 
disuaded from this effort just because it hasn't worked out in the past. We can 
always keep trying and perhaps by sheer force of persistence, we will get 
somewhere this year. You never know when your luck will turn.
?
However, COG, I am puzzled by your promotion of a two-day 
populace-championship?shoot. Are you in fact volunteering to run this thing and 
give up your Pennsic? Because?if you are not, then I believe we'd better stick 
to what we were working on, which is a short, expert-level, single day shoot 
that will not (hopefully) overtax any one individual. I'd like to focus on the 
possible.
?
Siegfried, thanks for your hilarious and so spot-on suggestion about naming the 
shoot! I love it! Henceforth to be known as the St. Sebastian Prize . . . . this 

surely clears the air and takes the problematic and contentious words like 
"championship" and "Pennsic" and "known world" completely out of the ring.?And 
think of the possible?prizes! A handmade museum-piece reliquary containing linen 

threads from the very holy bowstring of our dearest Patron Saint of Archery, 
Saint Sebastian!
?
We've gotten pretty close on this discussion board to a consensus on many of the 

elements?we forsee in this shoot. It will be at Pennsic; ?it will be completely 
outside the Pennsic war;??it will go up and get shot and come down before 
cocktail hour; ?it will be a concerted and joint effort by Atlantia's archers 
and their best eight?targets; ?it will be an individual championship; 
and?finally, it will be as inclusive as possible given the very real constraints 

of time and logistics.
?
At this point, I am going to go out on a limb and propose?that we form a 
committee to take this beyond the drawing board. I volunteer myself only because 

I am really tenacious and passionate and as far as I know, am the only person to 

freely (stupidly?) offer?to take this on, and I volunteer Lorelei and 
Janyn?(hope that's ok, guys!)?because they have wisdom and power and are very 
politic and nice to work with.?A number of individuals have volunteered to help 
with the shoot and prizes and targets and several have sent in numerous great 
ideas (yay!) Anyone else up for the politicking? Our first order of business is 
to draw up a document that outlines our task ahead and all the variables and 
possibilities, so we know we are on the same page, and our second order of 
business is to find out to whom we should be looking for help?in the Mid Realm 
and East powers-that-be.?
?
When you really think about this, every archer out there should be happy about 
this initiative: it can only be positive for archery, for archery at pennsic, 
and for archery in all our kingdoms. We must stop thinking of this as an 
adversarial quest and try to share our joyful vision instead.
?
Nuala of Needwood Forest

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Message: 2
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2010 21:12:17 -0400
From: "Janyn Fletcher" <janynfletcher at comcast.net>
To: "'Holly Gibbons'" <holly0920 at yahoo.com>,
    <archers at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org>
Subject: Re: [Archers] the St. Sebastian Prize at Pennsic XL
Message-ID: <000c01cb7a2b$031bb140$095313c0$@net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Holly your enthusiasm is inspiring to us all! As I stated in a prior post, I
would be more than willing to volunteer as this has been something I have
been pushing since I joined the SCA and my first Pennsic in 2008. I am there
for archery, so I also would be willing to help run whatever we propose. I
couldn't agree more with COG and I would like to see a multi-day event
because I think for those archers, (and there are plenty) that don't
participate in the war, they would appreciate the event. So, standing by to
help where it is needed..

Janyn

From: archers-bounces at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org
[mailto:archers-bounces at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org] On Behalf Of Holly
Gibbons
Sent: Monday, November 01, 2010 7:44 PM
To: archers at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org
Subject: [Archers] the St. Sebastian Prize at Pennsic XL

To the Scattered Archers of Atlantia:

Thanks for weighing in on the Pennsic question, COG. Experience is always
the best teacher. Even though I am rather a new kid on the block, I refuse
to be disuaded from this effort just because it hasn't worked out in the
past. We can always keep trying and perhaps by sheer force of persistence,
we will get somewhere this year. You never know when your luck will turn.

However, COG, I am puzzled by your promotion of a two-day
populace-championship shoot. Are you in fact volunteering to run this thing
and give up your Pennsic? Because if you are not, then I believe we'd better
stick to what we were working on, which is a short, expert-level, single day
shoot that will not (hopefully) overtax any one individual. I'd like to
focus on the possible.

Siegfried, thanks for your hilarious and so spot-on suggestion about naming
the shoot! I love it! Henceforth to be known as the St. Sebastian Prize . .
. . this surely clears the air and takes the problematic and contentious
words like "championship" and "Pennsic" and "known world" completely out of
the ring. And think of the possible prizes! A handmade museum-piece
reliquary containing linen threads from the very holy bowstring of our
dearest Patron Saint of Archery, Saint Sebastian!

We've gotten pretty close on this discussion board to a consensus on many of
the elements we forsee in this shoot. It will be at Pennsic;  it will be
completely outside the Pennsic war;  it will go up and get shot and come
down before cocktail hour;  it will be a concerted and joint effort by
Atlantia's archers and their best eight targets;  it will be an individual
championship; and finally, it will be as inclusive as possible given the
very real constraints of time and logistics.

At this point, I am going to go out on a limb and propose that we form a
committee to take this beyond the drawing board. I volunteer myself only
because I am really tenacious and passionate and as far as I know, am the
only person to freely (stupidly?) offer to take this on, and I volunteer
Lorelei and Janyn (hope that's ok, guys!) because they have wisdom and power
and are very politic and nice to work with. A number of individuals have
volunteered to help with the shoot and prizes and targets and several have
sent in numerous great ideas (yay!) Anyone else up for the politicking? Our
first order of business is to draw up a document that outlines our task
ahead and all the variables and possibilities, so we know we are on the same
page, and our second order of business is to find out to whom we should be
looking for help in the Mid Realm and East powers-that-be. 

When you really think about this, every archer out there should be happy
about this initiative: it can only be positive for archery, for archery at
pennsic, and for archery in all our kingdoms. We must stop thinking of this
as an adversarial quest and try to share our joyful vision instead.

Nuala of Needwood Forest

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Message: 3
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2010 21:32:51 -0400
From: <cogworks at triad.rr.com>
To: Holly Gibbons <holly0920 at yahoo.com>,
    archers at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org
Subject: Re: [Archers] the St. Sebastian Prize at Pennsic XL
Message-ID: <20101102013251.ZGK7L.14972.root at cdptpa-web20-z02>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8

Strictly for purpose of clarification:  
I suggested a two day shoot so that every person interested could have the 
opportunity to shoot, day one being qualification, day two being the actual 
shoot.  It is my experience that the "greatest archer" in one kingdom can't hold 
the quiver of another kingdom's champion runner up.  But perceptions exist and 
should be dealt with.

Now as for running it and giving up my Pennsic, perhaps because I have been to 
enough Pennsics to have actually made a wind chime out of the medalions I would 
not consider working two days as giving up my Pennsic.  I have done such for 
numerous occasions before, i.e. my lady runs the night throw at Pennsic.  
HOWEVER, as one who has been instrumental in every SAAD except the last one, 
Lorelei forbid me to do anything much to my consternation so next time I return 
the "favor", running archery shoots and not shooting them does not ruin my 
vacation.  (I have actually shot only ONE SAAD.)  Like many on this list, seeing 
others derive joy from my time well spent is pay back enough and makes any and 
all sacrifice worth it.

I have voiced my opinion that I think the populace shoots are exceptionaly 
boring and totally lack creativity.  Gulf Wars uses the same boring populace 
shoots but seems to have interesting novelty shoots every day.  So I'm all in 
favor of "something different" and support any and all efforts.  While it may 
not have come to fruition before, if it does next year I applaud the efforts.

I do question how it is possible to have a "popluace shoot" restricted to only 
the "better archers".  Do we judge by completness of kit?  i.e. the kid who 
wears a cheap cotton tunic over jeans and tennis shoes, is he allowed to shoot?  
Or do we look at RR scores?  And where is the line drawn there as each kingdom 
seems to have different cut off lines for each grouping.  Perhaps we simply say 
"you can't shoot unless your RR score is 85 or higher".  OK, but what if the 
archer is an amazing archer but doesn't shoot RR's because they've been in for a 
long time and think RRs are boring?  Or how do we check their RR scores?

Like Siegfried I only offer personal experience to assist and in a helpful 
manneer and intent.  It is NOT my intention to desuade nor derail any attempt to 
make Pennsic Archery more interesting.  Lord knows we need some infusion of 
creativity!  But, like Siegfried, it has been my job to act as buffer between 
those who like to complain and tear down and those who choose to build and 
applaud efforts.  Personally I feel if we do not point out pit falls we have 
experienced before they will only be fallen into once again and the best 
efforts........well you know how that ends.

So, having been there, done that, fought those battles, and have the scars, I 
shall sit on the side lines and applaud any and all efforts.  Should you have 
effectily enticed Lorelei to enter into this fray then, as usual, I shall 
support that lady in any and all ways I can.  She deserves it and it is the 
least I can do for her.

cog bowing out.....................................

---- Holly Gibbons <holly0920 at yahoo.com> wrote: 
> To the?Scattered?Archers of Atlantia:
?
Thanks for weighing in on the Pennsic question, COG. Experience is always the 
best teacher. Even though I am rather a new kid on the block, I refuse to be 
disuaded from this effort just because it hasn't worked out in the past. We can 
always keep trying and perhaps by sheer force of persistence, we will get 
somewhere this year. You never know when your luck will turn.
?
However, COG, I am puzzled by your promotion of a two-day 
populace-championship?shoot. Are you in fact volunteering to run this thing and 
give up your Pennsic? Because?if you are not, then I believe we'd better stick 
to what we were working on, which is a short, expert-level, single day shoot 
that will not (hopefully) overtax any one individual. I'd like to focus on the 
possible.
?
Siegfried, thanks for your hilarious and so spot-on suggestion about naming the 
shoot! I love it! Henceforth to be known as the St. Sebastian Prize . . . . this 

surely clears the air and takes the problematic and contentious words like 
"championship" and "Pennsic" and "known world" completely out of the ring.?And 
think of the possible?prizes! A handmade museum-piece reliquary containing linen 

threads from the very holy bowstring of our dearest Patron Saint of Archery, 
Saint Sebastian!
?
We've gotten pretty close on this discussion board to a consensus on many of the 

elements?we forsee in this shoot. It will be at Pennsic; ?it will be completely 
outside the Pennsic war;??it will go up and get shot and come down before 
cocktail hour; ?it will be a concerted and joint effort by Atlantia's archers 
and their best eight?targets; ?it will be an individual championship; 
and?finally, it will be as inclusive as possible given the very real constraints 

of time and logistics.
?
At this point, I am going to go out on a limb and propose?that we form a 
committee to take this beyond the drawing board. I volunteer myself only because 

I am really tenacious and passionate and as far as I know, am the only person to 

freely (stupidly?) offer?to take this on, and I volunteer Lorelei and 
Janyn?(hope that's ok, guys!)?because they have wisdom and power and are very 
politic and nice to work with.?A number of individuals have volunteered to help 
with the shoot and prizes and targets and several have sent in numerous great 
ideas (yay!) Anyone else up for the politicking? Our first order of business is 
to draw up a document that outlines our task ahead and all the variables and 
possibilities, so we know we are on the same page, and our second order of 
business is to find out to whom we should be looking for help?in the Mid Realm 
and East powers-that-be.?
?
When you really think about this, every archer out there should be happy about 
this initiative: it can only be positive for archery, for archery at pennsic, 
and for archery in all our kingdoms. We must stop thinking of this as an 
adversarial quest and try to share our joyful vision instead.
?
Nuala of Needwood Forest

------------------------------

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