[Archers] Archers Digest, Vol 82, Issue 18

Janyn Fletcher janynfletcher at comcast.net
Tue Jul 20 15:49:39 PDT 2010


Sorry point of contention here, what is a “senior” marshal, being a young whippersnapper I don’t think I am at “senior” yet :P

 

From: archers-bounces at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org [mailto:archers-bounces at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org] On Behalf Of pjdarby at verizon.net
Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2010 10:13 AM
To: archers at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org
Subject: Re: [Archers] Archers Digest, Vol 82, Issue 18

 

Wow!  What a discussion.  From rules to my culinary tastes.  At 58 years of age I am flattered although I am not sure about the Buff part but the pink stuff is probably true.  I also eat fresh venison backstraps.  (I once converted a vegetarian with backstraps once.  But that is another story)   I agree with Cog about the rules.  They should be vetted through the senior marshals before changes are made.

 

Colum


Jul 20, 2010 08:22:16 AM, archers at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org wrote:

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Today's Topics:

1. Re: Trying to make some sense... (John Atkins)
2. Re: Trying to make some sense... (fenrisulven at comcast.net)
3. Re: Trying to make some sense... (Siegfried)
4. Re: Trying to make some sense... (fenrisulven at comcast.net)
5. Re: Trying to make some sense... (Siegfried)
6. Re: Trying to make some sense... (John Atkins)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2010 20:04:08 -0400
From: "John Atkins" 
To: "'Jay Nardone'" , "'Janyn Fletcher'"
, 
Subject: Re: [Archers] Trying to make some sense...
Message-ID: <00a301cb279f$13b455e0$6501a8c0 at CoGWorks>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

I have to admit I was set back a bit when I saw Baron Buff eating pink
stuff and saying he actually prefered it! Gotta be those cold winters
getting to him......

Cog enjoying every second of this....

(Colum, I told you I would get some mileage out of this somehow.)

-----Original Message-----
From: Jay Nardone [mailto:jaynardone at comcast.net] 
Sent: Monday, July 19, 2010 7:40 PM
To: 'John Atkins'; 'Janyn Fletcher'; Archers at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org
Subject: RE: [Archers] Trying to make some sense...


Ha!! We will make him sit at the other bench! :P

-----Original Message-----
From: John Atkins [mailto:cogworks at triad.rr.com] 
Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2010 11:09 PM
To: 'Janyn Fletcher'; 'Jay Nardone'; Archers at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org
Subject: RE: [Archers] Trying to make some sense...

Janyn,
YOU'RE ON!!! Moose tracks. Hard to beat, but Colum eats some pink
stuff he calls ice cream and I call......well I can't put that out on a
public list......

cog

-----Original Message-----
From: Janyn Fletcher [mailto:janynfletcher at comcast.net] 
Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2010 7:23 PM
To: 'John Atkins'; 'Jay Nardone'; Archers at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org
Subject: RE: [Archers] Trying to make some sense...


Once again thanks for the information COG, very useful and I have to say
I don't disagree with you at all. I was talking with Godai on our way to
Barony practice this morning and I am more concerned about that certain
person you described that needs some solid proof of written rules to
prove them wrong. Also maybe the new folk that are interested in having
the guidelines we all follow. I would never turn someone away who is
willing to learn and listen and be safe. Ice Cream at Pennsic again this
year? Im buying!

Janyn

-----Original Message-----
From: John Atkins [mailto:cogworks at triad.rr.com] 
Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2010 1:14 PM
To: 'Jay Nardone'; 'Janyn Fletcher'; Archers at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org
Subject: RE: [Archers] Trying to make some sense...

My personal perspective on rules is that they exist only to back us up
when/if we run into an individual who needs a gastrointestinal window
(I'll let you all figure out who really needs one of those but it is
dependent upon a physical position I have yet to actually witness but
have run into many who seem to be able to assume this position!).
Therefore my position is that common sense and a concern for safety
often solves whatever problem may exist. I also believe strongly that
many new archers should be FIRST and FOREMOST encouraged to join us on
the range. i.e. An archer who has a very long draw length such that
they can not find wooden shafted arrows. I'll give them a dispensation
to use aluminum or carbon shafted arrows but not if they are shooting
for Royal Archer or the like. But my feeling is get them on the range,
then move them into our standards while always being safe.

That said, our rules are currently is a miserable state of confliction.
There has been much said and accepted as the norm that is NOT actually
written down or incorporated into either our rules or the SCA wide
rules. I have participated in shoots at other events, i.e. highland
games and Ren Faires, and believe me when I say the SCA is MUCH safer
than these other venues by far! I also firmly believe that a change in
the rules or, as in this case, correction of the rules should be done in
a public forum. What I mean here is we should not have edicts from "on
high" but solutions should be proposed, discussed within/by the marshal
community, then a consensus achieved and the final decision made. That
final decision should rightfully come from the DEM and EM as they are
ultimately responsible. However I adamantly disagree with decisions
made in the absence of this discussion. Situations happen but there are
ALWAYS multiple reasons for them happening. Therefore there are
multiple solutions to the "situations". Selecting the best one that
works for all is the real challenge but the right choice.

As for changes between kingdoms that is not just the responsibility of
the DEM but each individual archer. I recall one day on the range at
Gulf Wars we were about to start a speed round. Enoguy had nocked two
arrows, acceptable in Atlantia, to start. The marshal running the line,
from GlenAhbend, would not allow him to shoot two arrows at once. That
was a difference between Atlantia and GlenAhbend. Out West there has
been "noise" about archer authorizations. Personally I would really
hate to see this. I believe if a marshal is actually controlling the
line, as they should, then a simple run through of the commands and an
equipment inspection should suffice. I always watch new archers very
closely, particularly ones shooting crossbows. It's not that I hate
those instruments of the devil, :-), it's that often new archers will
have a cocked crossbow, bolt on the table then turn to respond to a
person standing behind them. Thus that loaded crossbow is now pointing
at the archer next to them on the line. Stuff like that happens, but I
maintain that if the marshal is actually watching the line and acting as
the safety officer they should be this doesn't happen. Same thing with
archers shooting very crosswise to the range, i.e. shooting at a target
on the right edge of the range from the extreme left end of the shooting
line. Where is that arrow going to go if they miss? Even our new range
definition would not create a safe zone to deal with this insanity. Last
year at the Masters shoot at Pennsic many of us Atlantians witnessed an
act that we considered extremely unsafe and careless. When I brought it
to the attention of the Eastern Archer General, their DEM, he knew of it
and simply dismissed it. In Atlantian the individual would have been
removed from the range. But Pennsic is not an Atlantian war, we are
guests and must play by their rules regardless of how we feel about
them. If we deem them too unsafe we go back to the food court and get a
double dip of that marvelous Hershey's ice cream!

And thus, because I type really fast, I have once again filled your
inbox with my drivel. But let me finish with my thoughts on our rules
and their current state. I believe they should be gone over and
solidified. Those Atlantian rules that vary from the SCA wide rules
should be noted as such, i.e. 3.2.1 SCA rules modified to blah, blah,
blah. That way we don't have to totally re-write the archery rules and
if changes are made either in Atlantian or SCA it minimizes the effort
required to post the change. After these changes have been made by the
TA DEM (it would be their ultimate responsibility), they get posted to
the marshal's list for review and comment. Discussions ensue and the
final version of the rules posted. At that point the TA MIC class
outline can be updated as needed. This is the exact same process that
this marshal community went through with the new range rule. I think a
process like this will minimize the back and forth discussions about the
rules while providing input from all parts of Atlantia.

cog

-----Original Message-----
From: Jay Nardone [mailto:jaynardone at comcast.net] 
Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2010 10:42 AM
To: 'John Atkins'; 'Janyn Fletcher'; Archers at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org
Subject: RE: [Archers] Trying to make some sense...


COG, thanks for the update I was hoping you would comment. I just want
to say again it is by no way I finger pointing at all, I was just trying
to understand. I was given an opportunity by Lorelei as her deputy and
as many know me I love to help. I yield to all of the wisdom that has
come before us to understand how things are. Not saying they are right
or wrong but going forward I would like to see some changes so we all
are on the same page. I am relatively new to the SCA as compared to most
of you but I have been very active and really had a chance to see how
other kingdoms operate in my travels. I can honestly say I am grateful
for the way Atlantia is and I love being part of it. Thanks again for
the comments!

Janyn






------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 00:49:04 +0000 (UTC)
From: fenrisulven at comcast.net
To: Siegfried 
Cc: archers at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org
Subject: Re: [Archers] Trying to make some sense...
Message-ID:
<2033718083.132395.1279586944880.JavaMail.root at sz0063a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net>

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"




----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Siegfried" 
To: fenrisulven at comcast.net 
Cc: archers at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org 
Sent: Monday, July 19, 2010 2:19:59 PM 
Subject: Re: [Archers] Trying to make some sense... 

"it's the autocrat's right to setup the event however they wish, and 
it's their right to decide what activities happen ....In the end, the autocrat 

decides what activities happens, it's their event." 



I'm not arguing that.? My point is that after the autocrat has decided to have archery, 

after he has handed off space to the MIC, after the MIC has set up his range fan - the 

autocrat should not have the authority to go back and change the space.? At least 

not without involving the MOL in the decision. 



Cheers 

Fen? 

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Message: 3
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 08:19:27 -0400
From: Siegfried 
To: fenrisulven at comcast.net
Cc: archers at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org
Subject: Re: [Archers] Trying to make some sense...
Message-ID: <4C45944F.7060802 at crossbows.biz>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

> I'm not arguing that. My point is that /after /the autocrat has decided
> to have archery,
> 
> /after/ he has handed off space to the MIC, /after/ the MIC has set up
> his range fan - the
> 
> autocrat should not have the authority to go back and change the space. 
> At least
> 
> not without involving the MOL in the decision.

I'm sorry Fen, but it's the autocrats event. If the autocrat decides at
2pm that they don't want any archery. Then there isn't any archery.
The MIC has no 'power' to say "Up Yours Autocrat, you gave me this
space, now it's mine"

Also, the MOL has no bearing at all with anything to do with archery.

Siegfried



-- 
Barun Siegfried Sebastian Faust - Barony of Highland Foorde - Atlantia
http://hf.atlantia.sca.org/ - http://crossbows.biz/ - http://eliw.com/


------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 13:00:21 +0000 (UTC)
From: fenrisulven at comcast.net
To: Siegfried 
Cc: archers at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org
Subject: Re: [Archers] Trying to make some sense...
Message-ID:
<1058009322.149837.1279630821739.JavaMail.root at sz0063a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net>

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"




----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Siegfried" 
To: fenrisulven at comcast.net 
Cc: archers at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org 
Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2010 8:19:27 AM 
Subject: Re: [Archers] Trying to make some sense... 


I'm sorry Fen, but it's the autocrats event. ?If the autocrat decides at 
2pm that they don't want any archery. ?Then there isn't any archery. 
The MIC has no 'power' to say "Up Yours Autocrat, you gave me this 
space, now it's mine" 


You're right, I see that.? But if safety is our #1 priority, then that structure needs to be changed. 



At Storvik Novice we spent an hour with protractors,?police tape, and a laser range finder, 

just to be certain the course met the new standards .? Allowing the autocrat to come in and change 

our space afterwards would have jeapordized its safety.? What was a carefully?planned course 

would have become a cluster. 



I know that on paper the Marshal has the responsibility to shut it all down if he feels its no longer safe, 

but human nature being what it is -?I think most will try to adapt the course to the new space on the fly 

and, under pressure and in?a rush to "make it work",?we risk something safety- related falling thru the cracks.? 




Also, the MOL has no bearing at all with anything to do with archery. 


My bad, I meant the EM or his Deputy, not the MOL. 



Regardless, you have more knowledge and experience with this.? So I submit to your judgement. 

Thank you for allowing me to voice my concerns, and for responding to them so gently. 



Cheers 

Fen 


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Message: 5
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 09:13:40 -0400
From: Siegfried 
To: fenrisulven at comcast.net
Cc: archers at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org
Subject: Re: [Archers] Trying to make some sense...
Message-ID: <4C45A104.8070107 at crossbows.biz>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

> /I'm sorry Fen, but it's the autocrats event. If the autocrat decides at
> 2pm that they don't want any archery. Then there isn't any archery.
> The MIC has no 'power' to say "Up Yours Autocrat, you gave me this
> space, now it's mine"/
> 
> You're right, I see that. But if safety is our #1 priority, then that
> structure needs to be changed.

No Fen, you are still looking at this from the POV that the archers have
a 'right' to be there.

Safety IS our #1 priority. Which is why if the autocrat chooses to not
give us enough space to shoot safely. It's our job, and within our
power, to SHUT DOWN THE RANGE.

That is the one 'trump card' that marshals have. We don't have the
right to demand more space so that we CAN shoot safely, or to 'outrank'
the autocrat and tell them 'no' that we own that space.

Similarly, an autocrat cannot 'make us shoot', if we say it's unsafe.

Though again, all this should be an 'extreme outer case' anyway, as
there should hopefully be a smooth working relationship between autocrat
and marshal(s). If not, that's something the local group & Seneschal
will be dealing with after the fact.

Siegfried


-- 
Barun Siegfried Sebastian Faust - Barony of Highland Foorde - Atlantia
http://hf.atlantia.sca.org/ - http://crossbows.biz/ - http://eliw.com/


------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 09:22:03 -0400
From: "John Atkins" 
To: "'Siegfried'" , 
Cc: archers at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org
Subject: Re: [Archers] Trying to make some sense...
Message-ID: <002801cb280e$8b156740$6501a8c0 at CoGWorks>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

I think Baron Gracious (never let a good opportunity go unused!) and Fen
are on the same page here, just saying slighting different versions. I
would suggest that the proposed situation, a hostile autocrat, is easily
dealt with by getting involved with them long before the date of the
event. We had a very similar situation happen in my area precipitated
by the new range rule. Where we typically had the archery range was
great because it was highly visible. It was marginal according to the
previous rule but the new rule deemed the range unsafe. (It remains
unsafe because it is now used by the questrians for their activities and
we all know what horse leave behind, but I stray from my point.) We are
now on the other side of the lake in the "back 40". However, this move
was done in concert with the autocrat of the latest event and several
upcoming events at the site.

cog

-----Original Message-----
From: archers-bounces at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org
[mailto:archers-bounces at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org] On Behalf Of
Siegfried
Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2010 9:14 AM
To: fenrisulven at comcast.net
Cc: archers at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org
Subject: Re: [Archers] Trying to make some sense...


> /I'm sorry Fen, but it's the autocrats event. If the autocrat decides

> at 2pm that they don't want any archery. Then there isn't any 
> archery. The MIC has no 'power' to say "Up Yours Autocrat, you gave me

> this space, now it's mine"/
> 
> You're right, I see that. But if safety is our #1 priority, then that

> structure needs to be changed.

No Fen, you are still looking at this from the POV that the archers have
a 'right' to be there.

Safety IS our #1 priority. Which is why if the autocrat chooses to not
give us enough space to shoot safely. It's our job, and within our
power, to SHUT DOWN THE RANGE.

That is the one 'trump card' that marshals have. We don't have the
right to demand more space so that we CAN shoot safely, or to 'outrank'
the autocrat and tell them 'no' that we own that space.

Similarly, an autocrat cannot 'make us shoot', if we say it's unsafe.

Though again, all this should be an 'extreme outer case' anyway, as
there should hopefully be a smooth working relationship between autocrat
and marshal(s). If not, that's something the local group & Seneschal
will be dealing with after the fact.

Siegfried


-- 
Barun Siegfried Sebastian Faust - Barony of Highland Foorde - Atlantia
http://hf.atlantia.sca.org/ - http://crossbows.biz/ - http://eliw.com/
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End of Archers Digest, Vol 82, Issue 18
***************************************

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