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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Sorry point of contention here, what is a “senior” marshal,
being a young whippersnapper I don’t think I am at “senior” yet :P<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>
archers-bounces@seahorse.atlantia.sca.org
[mailto:archers-bounces@seahorse.atlantia.sca.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>pjdarby@verizon.net<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, July 20, 2010 10:13 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> archers@seahorse.atlantia.sca.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Archers] Archers Digest, Vol 82, Issue 18<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>Wow! What a discussion. From rules to my
culinary tastes. At 58 years of age I am flattered although I am not
sure about the Buff part but the pink stuff is probably true. I also eat
fresh venison backstraps. (I once converted a vegetarian with backstraps
once. But that is another story) I agree with Cog about the
rules. They should be vetted through the senior marshals before changes
are made.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>Colum<br>
<br>
<br>
Jul 20, 2010 08:22:16 AM, archers@seahorse.atlantia.sca.org wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #6699CC 2.25pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 0in;
margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal>Send Archers mailing list submissions to<br>
archers@seahorse.atlantia.sca.org<br>
<br>
To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit<br>
http://seahorse.atlantia.sca.org/listinfo.cgi/archers-atlantia.sca.org<br>
<br>
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to<br>
archers-request@seahorse.atlantia.sca.org<br>
<br>
You can reach the person managing the list at<br>
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<br>
When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific<br>
than "Re: Contents of Archers digest..."<br>
<br>
<br>
Today's Topics:<br>
<br>
1. Re: Trying to make some sense... (John Atkins)<br>
2. Re: Trying to make some sense... (fenrisulven@comcast.net)<br>
3. Re: Trying to make some sense... (Siegfried)<br>
4. Re: Trying to make some sense... (fenrisulven@comcast.net)<br>
5. Re: Trying to make some sense... (Siegfried)<br>
6. Re: Trying to make some sense... (John Atkins)<br>
<br>
<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 1<br>
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2010 20:04:08 -0400<br>
From: "John Atkins" <br>
To: "'Jay Nardone'" , "'Janyn Fletcher'"<br>
, <br>
Subject: Re: [Archers] Trying to make some sense...<br>
Message-ID: <00a301cb279f$13b455e0$6501a8c0@CoGWorks><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"<br>
<br>
I have to admit I was set back a bit when I saw Baron Buff eating pink<br>
stuff and saying he actually prefered it! Gotta be those cold winters<br>
getting to him......<br>
<br>
Cog enjoying every second of this....<br>
<br>
(Colum, I told you I would get some mileage out of this somehow.)<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Jay Nardone [mailto:jaynardone@comcast.net] <br>
Sent: Monday, July 19, 2010 7:40 PM<br>
To: 'John Atkins'; 'Janyn Fletcher'; Archers@seahorse.atlantia.sca.org<br>
Subject: RE: [Archers] Trying to make some sense...<br>
<br>
<br>
Ha!! We will make him sit at the other bench! :P<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: John Atkins [mailto:cogworks@triad.rr.com] <br>
Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2010 11:09 PM<br>
To: 'Janyn Fletcher'; 'Jay Nardone'; Archers@seahorse.atlantia.sca.org<br>
Subject: RE: [Archers] Trying to make some sense...<br>
<br>
Janyn,<br>
YOU'RE ON!!! Moose tracks. Hard to beat, but Colum eats some pink<br>
stuff he calls ice cream and I call......well I can't put that out on a<br>
public list......<br>
<br>
cog<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Janyn Fletcher [mailto:janynfletcher@comcast.net] <br>
Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2010 7:23 PM<br>
To: 'John Atkins'; 'Jay Nardone'; Archers@seahorse.atlantia.sca.org<br>
Subject: RE: [Archers] Trying to make some sense...<br>
<br>
<br>
Once again thanks for the information COG, very useful and I have to say<br>
I don't disagree with you at all. I was talking with Godai on our way to<br>
Barony practice this morning and I am more concerned about that certain<br>
person you described that needs some solid proof of written rules to<br>
prove them wrong. Also maybe the new folk that are interested in having<br>
the guidelines we all follow. I would never turn someone away who is<br>
willing to learn and listen and be safe. Ice Cream at Pennsic again this<br>
year? Im buying!<br>
<br>
Janyn<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: John Atkins [mailto:cogworks@triad.rr.com] <br>
Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2010 1:14 PM<br>
To: 'Jay Nardone'; 'Janyn Fletcher'; Archers@seahorse.atlantia.sca.org<br>
Subject: RE: [Archers] Trying to make some sense...<br>
<br>
My personal perspective on rules is that they exist only to back us up<br>
when/if we run into an individual who needs a gastrointestinal window<br>
(I'll let you all figure out who really needs one of those but it is<br>
dependent upon a physical position I have yet to actually witness but<br>
have run into many who seem to be able to assume this position!).<br>
Therefore my position is that common sense and a concern for safety<br>
often solves whatever problem may exist. I also believe strongly that<br>
many new archers should be FIRST and FOREMOST encouraged to join us on<br>
the range. i.e. An archer who has a very long draw length such that<br>
they can not find wooden shafted arrows. I'll give them a dispensation<br>
to use aluminum or carbon shafted arrows but not if they are shooting<br>
for Royal Archer or the like. But my feeling is get them on the range,<br>
then move them into our standards while always being safe.<br>
<br>
That said, our rules are currently is a miserable state of confliction.<br>
There has been much said and accepted as the norm that is NOT actually<br>
written down or incorporated into either our rules or the SCA wide<br>
rules. I have participated in shoots at other events, i.e. highland<br>
games and Ren Faires, and believe me when I say the SCA is MUCH safer<br>
than these other venues by far! I also firmly believe that a change in<br>
the rules or, as in this case, correction of the rules should be done in<br>
a public forum. What I mean here is we should not have edicts from "on<br>
high" but solutions should be proposed, discussed within/by the marshal<br>
community, then a consensus achieved and the final decision made. That<br>
final decision should rightfully come from the DEM and EM as they are<br>
ultimately responsible. However I adamantly disagree with decisions<br>
made in the absence of this discussion. Situations happen but there are<br>
ALWAYS multiple reasons for them happening. Therefore there are<br>
multiple solutions to the "situations". Selecting the best one that<br>
works for all is the real challenge but the right choice.<br>
<br>
As for changes between kingdoms that is not just the responsibility of<br>
the DEM but each individual archer. I recall one day on the range at<br>
Gulf Wars we were about to start a speed round. Enoguy had nocked two<br>
arrows, acceptable in Atlantia, to start. The marshal running the line,<br>
from GlenAhbend, would not allow him to shoot two arrows at once. That<br>
was a difference between Atlantia and GlenAhbend. Out West there has<br>
been "noise" about archer authorizations. Personally I would really<br>
hate to see this. I believe if a marshal is actually controlling the<br>
line, as they should, then a simple run through of the commands and an<br>
equipment inspection should suffice. I always watch new archers very<br>
closely, particularly ones shooting crossbows. It's not that I hate<br>
those instruments of the devil, :-), it's that often new archers will<br>
have a cocked crossbow, bolt on the table then turn to respond to a<br>
person standing behind them. Thus that loaded crossbow is now pointing<br>
at the archer next to them on the line. Stuff like that happens, but I<br>
maintain that if the marshal is actually watching the line and acting as<br>
the safety officer they should be this doesn't happen. Same thing with<br>
archers shooting very crosswise to the range, i.e. shooting at a target<br>
on the right edge of the range from the extreme left end of the shooting<br>
line. Where is that arrow going to go if they miss? Even our new range<br>
definition would not create a safe zone to deal with this insanity. Last<br>
year at the Masters shoot at Pennsic many of us Atlantians witnessed an<br>
act that we considered extremely unsafe and careless. When I brought it<br>
to the attention of the Eastern Archer General, their DEM, he knew of it<br>
and simply dismissed it. In Atlantian the individual would have been<br>
removed from the range. But Pennsic is not an Atlantian war, we are<br>
guests and must play by their rules regardless of how we feel about<br>
them. If we deem them too unsafe we go back to the food court and get a<br>
double dip of that marvelous Hershey's ice cream!<br>
<br>
And thus, because I type really fast, I have once again filled your<br>
inbox with my drivel. But let me finish with my thoughts on our rules<br>
and their current state. I believe they should be gone over and<br>
solidified. Those Atlantian rules that vary from the SCA wide rules<br>
should be noted as such, i.e. 3.2.1 SCA rules modified to blah, blah,<br>
blah. That way we don't have to totally re-write the archery rules and<br>
if changes are made either in Atlantian or SCA it minimizes the effort<br>
required to post the change. After these changes have been made by the<br>
TA DEM (it would be their ultimate responsibility), they get posted to<br>
the marshal's list for review and comment. Discussions ensue and the<br>
final version of the rules posted. At that point the TA MIC class<br>
outline can be updated as needed. This is the exact same process that<br>
this marshal community went through with the new range rule. I think a<br>
process like this will minimize the back and forth discussions about the<br>
rules while providing input from all parts of Atlantia.<br>
<br>
cog<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Jay Nardone [mailto:jaynardone@comcast.net] <br>
Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2010 10:42 AM<br>
To: 'John Atkins'; 'Janyn Fletcher'; Archers@seahorse.atlantia.sca.org<br>
Subject: RE: [Archers] Trying to make some sense...<br>
<br>
<br>
COG, thanks for the update I was hoping you would comment. I just want<br>
to say again it is by no way I finger pointing at all, I was just trying<br>
to understand. I was given an opportunity by Lorelei as her deputy and<br>
as many know me I love to help. I yield to all of the wisdom that has<br>
come before us to understand how things are. Not saying they are right<br>
or wrong but going forward I would like to see some changes so we all<br>
are on the same page. I am relatively new to the SCA as compared to most<br>
of you but I have been very active and really had a chance to see how<br>
other kingdoms operate in my travels. I can honestly say I am grateful<br>
for the way Atlantia is and I love being part of it. Thanks again for<br>
the comments!<br>
<br>
Janyn<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 2<br>
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 00:49:04 +0000 (UTC)<br>
From: fenrisulven@comcast.net<br>
To: Siegfried <br>
Cc: archers@seahorse.atlantia.sca.org<br>
Subject: Re: [Archers] Trying to make some sense...<br>
Message-ID:<br>
<2033718083.132395.1279586944880.JavaMail.root@sz0063a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net><br>
<br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
----- Original Message ----- <br>
From: "Siegfried" <br>
To: fenrisulven@comcast.net <br>
Cc: archers@seahorse.atlantia.sca.org <br>
Sent: Monday, July 19, 2010 2:19:59 PM <br>
Subject: Re: [Archers] Trying to make some sense... <br>
<br>
"it's the autocrat's right to setup the event however they wish, and <br>
it's their right to decide what activities happen ....In the end, the autocrat <br>
<br>
decides what activities happens, it's their event." <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
I'm not arguing that.? My point is that after the autocrat has decided to have
archery, <br>
<br>
after he has handed off space to the MIC, after the MIC has set up his range
fan - the <br>
<br>
autocrat should not have the authority to go back and change the space.? At
least <br>
<br>
not without involving the MOL in the decision. <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Cheers <br>
<br>
Fen? <br>
<br>
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Message: 3<br>
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 08:19:27 -0400<br>
From: Siegfried <br>
To: fenrisulven@comcast.net<br>
Cc: archers@seahorse.atlantia.sca.org<br>
Subject: Re: [Archers] Trying to make some sense...<br>
Message-ID: <4C45944F.7060802@crossbows.biz><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8<br>
<br>
> I'm not arguing that. My point is that /after /the autocrat has decided<br>
> to have archery,<br>
> <br>
> /after/ he has handed off space to the MIC, /after/ the MIC has set up<br>
> his range fan - the<br>
> <br>
> autocrat should not have the authority to go back and change the space. <br>
> At least<br>
> <br>
> not without involving the MOL in the decision.<br>
<br>
I'm sorry Fen, but it's the autocrats event. If the autocrat decides at<br>
2pm that they don't want any archery. Then there isn't any archery.<br>
The MIC has no 'power' to say "Up Yours Autocrat, you gave me this<br>
space, now it's mine"<br>
<br>
Also, the MOL has no bearing at all with anything to do with archery.<br>
<br>
Siegfried<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
-- <br>
Barun Siegfried Sebastian Faust - Barony of Highland Foorde - Atlantia<br>
http://hf.atlantia.sca.org/ - http://crossbows.biz/ - http://eliw.com/<br>
<br>
<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 4<br>
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 13:00:21 +0000 (UTC)<br>
From: fenrisulven@comcast.net<br>
To: Siegfried <br>
Cc: archers@seahorse.atlantia.sca.org<br>
Subject: Re: [Archers] Trying to make some sense...<br>
Message-ID:<br>
<1058009322.149837.1279630821739.JavaMail.root@sz0063a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net><br>
<br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
----- Original Message ----- <br>
From: "Siegfried" <br>
To: fenrisulven@comcast.net <br>
Cc: archers@seahorse.atlantia.sca.org <br>
Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2010 8:19:27 AM <br>
Subject: Re: [Archers] Trying to make some sense... <br>
<br>
<br>
I'm sorry Fen, but it's the autocrats event. ?If the autocrat decides at <br>
2pm that they don't want any archery. ?Then there isn't any archery. <br>
The MIC has no 'power' to say "Up Yours Autocrat, you gave me this <br>
space, now it's mine" <br>
<br>
<br>
You're right, I see that.? But if safety is our #1 priority, then that
structure needs to be changed. <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
At Storvik Novice we spent an hour with protractors,?police tape, and a laser
range finder, <br>
<br>
just to be certain the course met the new standards .? Allowing the autocrat to
come in and change <br>
<br>
our space afterwards would have jeapordized its safety.? What was a
carefully?planned course <br>
<br>
would have become a cluster. <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
I know that on paper the Marshal has the responsibility to shut it all down if
he feels its no longer safe, <br>
<br>
but human nature being what it is -?I think most will try to adapt the course
to the new space on the fly <br>
<br>
and, under pressure and in?a rush to "make it work",?we risk
something safety- related falling thru the cracks.? <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Also, the MOL has no bearing at all with anything to do with archery. <br>
<br>
<br>
My bad, I meant the EM or his Deputy, not the MOL. <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Regardless, you have more knowledge and experience with this.? So I submit to
your judgement. <br>
<br>
Thank you for allowing me to voice my concerns, and for responding to them so
gently. <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Cheers <br>
<br>
Fen <br>
<br>
<br>
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Message: 5<br>
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 09:13:40 -0400<br>
From: Siegfried <br>
To: fenrisulven@comcast.net<br>
Cc: archers@seahorse.atlantia.sca.org<br>
Subject: Re: [Archers] Trying to make some sense...<br>
Message-ID: <4C45A104.8070107@crossbows.biz><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8<br>
<br>
> /I'm sorry Fen, but it's the autocrats event. If the autocrat decides at<br>
> 2pm that they don't want any archery. Then there isn't any archery.<br>
> The MIC has no 'power' to say "Up Yours Autocrat, you gave me this<br>
> space, now it's mine"/<br>
> <br>
> You're right, I see that. But if safety is our #1 priority, then that<br>
> structure needs to be changed.<br>
<br>
No Fen, you are still looking at this from the POV that the archers have<br>
a 'right' to be there.<br>
<br>
Safety IS our #1 priority. Which is why if the autocrat chooses to not<br>
give us enough space to shoot safely. It's our job, and within our<br>
power, to SHUT DOWN THE RANGE.<br>
<br>
That is the one 'trump card' that marshals have. We don't have the<br>
right to demand more space so that we CAN shoot safely, or to 'outrank'<br>
the autocrat and tell them 'no' that we own that space.<br>
<br>
Similarly, an autocrat cannot 'make us shoot', if we say it's unsafe.<br>
<br>
Though again, all this should be an 'extreme outer case' anyway, as<br>
there should hopefully be a smooth working relationship between autocrat<br>
and marshal(s). If not, that's something the local group & Seneschal<br>
will be dealing with after the fact.<br>
<br>
Siegfried<br>
<br>
<br>
-- <br>
Barun Siegfried Sebastian Faust - Barony of Highland Foorde - Atlantia<br>
http://hf.atlantia.sca.org/ - http://crossbows.biz/ - http://eliw.com/<br>
<br>
<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 6<br>
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 09:22:03 -0400<br>
From: "John Atkins" <br>
To: "'Siegfried'" , <br>
Cc: archers@seahorse.atlantia.sca.org<br>
Subject: Re: [Archers] Trying to make some sense...<br>
Message-ID: <002801cb280e$8b156740$6501a8c0@CoGWorks><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"<br>
<br>
I think Baron Gracious (never let a good opportunity go unused!) and Fen<br>
are on the same page here, just saying slighting different versions. I<br>
would suggest that the proposed situation, a hostile autocrat, is easily<br>
dealt with by getting involved with them long before the date of the<br>
event. We had a very similar situation happen in my area precipitated<br>
by the new range rule. Where we typically had the archery range was<br>
great because it was highly visible. It was marginal according to the<br>
previous rule but the new rule deemed the range unsafe. (It remains<br>
unsafe because it is now used by the questrians for their activities and<br>
we all know what horse leave behind, but I stray from my point.) We are<br>
now on the other side of the lake in the "back 40". However, this
move<br>
was done in concert with the autocrat of the latest event and several<br>
upcoming events at the site.<br>
<br>
cog<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: archers-bounces@seahorse.atlantia.sca.org<br>
[mailto:archers-bounces@seahorse.atlantia.sca.org] On Behalf Of<br>
Siegfried<br>
Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2010 9:14 AM<br>
To: fenrisulven@comcast.net<br>
Cc: archers@seahorse.atlantia.sca.org<br>
Subject: Re: [Archers] Trying to make some sense...<br>
<br>
<br>
> /I'm sorry Fen, but it's the autocrats event. If the autocrat decides<br>
<br>
> at 2pm that they don't want any archery. Then there isn't any <br>
> archery. The MIC has no 'power' to say "Up Yours Autocrat, you gave
me<br>
<br>
> this space, now it's mine"/<br>
> <br>
> You're right, I see that. But if safety is our #1 priority, then that<br>
<br>
> structure needs to be changed.<br>
<br>
No Fen, you are still looking at this from the POV that the archers have<br>
a 'right' to be there.<br>
<br>
Safety IS our #1 priority. Which is why if the autocrat chooses to not<br>
give us enough space to shoot safely. It's our job, and within our<br>
power, to SHUT DOWN THE RANGE.<br>
<br>
That is the one 'trump card' that marshals have. We don't have the<br>
right to demand more space so that we CAN shoot safely, or to 'outrank'<br>
the autocrat and tell them 'no' that we own that space.<br>
<br>
Similarly, an autocrat cannot 'make us shoot', if we say it's unsafe.<br>
<br>
Though again, all this should be an 'extreme outer case' anyway, as<br>
there should hopefully be a smooth working relationship between autocrat<br>
and marshal(s). If not, that's something the local group & Seneschal<br>
will be dealing with after the fact.<br>
<br>
Siegfried<br>
<br>
<br>
-- <br>
Barun Siegfried Sebastian Faust - Barony of Highland Foorde - Atlantia<br>
http://hf.atlantia.sca.org/ - http://crossbows.biz/ - http://eliw.com/<br>
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End of Archers Digest, Vol 82, Issue 18<br>
***************************************<o:p></o:p></p>
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