[Archers] Dropped arrows rule

Fri Aug 27 14:16:02 PDT 2010

It is hardly a highly dangerous act. If the archer is proficient, (and you
will know this immediately when they try), it is no more dangerous than
shooting one or 5 arrows at once. Many of us can do it without even thinking
about it at all. I hate generalizations..

From: archers-bounces at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org
[mailto:archers-bounces at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org] On Behalf Of John Atkins
Sent: Friday, August 27, 2010 12:04 PM
To: 'Summer Rain'
Cc: Archers at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org
Subject: Re: [Archers] Dropped arrows rule

Lady Anne,

Unfortunately the rules for SCA activities are not consistent among all the
kingdoms.  Some kingdoms, Atlantia, says for archers to straddle the
shooting line, some, Trimaris, don't.  Some kingdoms, Atlantia, allow two
arrows for the first shot of a timed round, some don't, Glen Ahbend.  Some
kingdoms, East, allow rifle stocks on crossbows, some, Atlantia, don't.
These variances in rules do cause some confusion for archers when we travel
around or go to war.  However, getting every single kingdom to agree on a
set of rules would be harder than controlling the weather!  The best answer
is, learn the rules for your home kingdom.  When you travel to other
kingdoms or war and you get "cautioned" about a minor rule infraction
(hopefully not something as drastic as your crossbow has a rifle stock and
that kingdom does not allow them) accept it and live with it.  I don't say
this as a chastisement, just a caution of what you can expect to encounter
within the SCA.  I can still see Enequy's face when the marshal at Gulf Wars
told him he could not start his timed round with two arrows.  Picture a kid
who just had their ice cream cone taken away!

Now to the issue of shooting two arrows at once, perhaps this comes merely
as a heads up but take it as you will.  During the first part of the first
week at this year's Pennsic I was on the range with about 3 other folks.
They were shooting other stations but we crossed paths a few times.  One
fellow told me he was going to ask Squirrel if he could set and run the
Champion's Shoot next year.  I say this only to put him in context if you
know who he is as I have long since forgotten his name.  He was discussing
the shooting of two arrows.  His point is that it is a highly dangerous act.
I gently told him a lady in my area, our very own Lorelei, does it all the
time and safely.  To emphasize his point, he nocked two arrows and shot them
saying "there, see?  You can't control them.  Look at that spread!"  He shot
his arrows about 25 yards and they landed about 1 1/2 feet apart.  I again
told him of Lorelei and that she regularly gets her two arrows inside the
red at 20 yards.  But his point was that he plans on taking his "issue" to
the highest authority and have it outlawed.  He maintains that there are
archers who can safely shoot two arrows but if a novice saw this and tried
it that it would digress into a very unsafe act.  I then asked him about the
holding of arrows in the bow hand during a speed round.  That seemed to
perplex him at which point I did my exit stage left and continued shooting.
I relay this story only in that there may be a remote possibility that a
rule may be considered from the SCA marshal concerning shooting two arrows
at the same time.  My position is that those I know who do it are no safety
hazard to the range.  If a person is having difficulty doing it, and it
should be obvious, a safe, good marshal will step in and tell them not to do
it.  Much like stepping over the line to pick up a dropped arrow.

cog

-----Original Message-----
From: Summer Rain [mailto:summerrain.wa at gmail.com] 
Sent: Friday, August 27, 2010 11:41 AM
To: John Atkins
Cc: Garth G. Groff; Archers at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org
Subject: Re: [Archers] Dropped arrows rule

Hi,
I'm going to chime in. As a new archer, I was told to leave a dropped arrow
on the ground regardless of where it landed. I thought it was already in the
rules. 

If you look at other kingdom archery rules, they specifically mention
dropped arrows. Please remember, that for a new archer, it doesn't matter
where the arrow lands, if they are taught it is okay to pick it up in one
instance,and not another, it can become second nature to stoop and pick one
up, without forthought of safety.

My thought and what I was taught was if an arrow is on the ground, it stays
there until all bows are down. 

Now, what about bounced arrows?

In Service,
Lady Anne Rose Smythe
Novice

On Aug 27, 2010 8:13 AM, "John Atkins" <cogworks at triad.rr.com> wrote:
> I'm in agreement about the dropped arrow doesn't count thoughts here.
> We ARE out here for the fun of it, not to penalize folks.
> 
> As for the stepping over the line, we have a rule to cover that. As for
> picking up a shaft at one's feet, to me this goes right back to the
> quality of the marshal running the line. I have seen marshals "running"
> the line while sitting under a sun shade 10 feet back and 20 feet off
> the end of the line. I have seen marshals, at Pennsic, so involved in
> "teaching/instructing" someone they are not watching the line. To my
> way of thinking these are marshals who should have their warrants
> pulled. A marshal is a safety officer. We have some basic rules to
> fall back on but, as stated in the rules, the marshal is the final word
> on the range. i.e. atlatl can occur on the arhcery range if the marshal
> is comfortable with it, otherwise no atlatl. Not everyone who expresses
> an interest in becoming a marshal should be warranted as a marshal.
> There has to be a judgement on the warranting body of the individual's
> ability to be a GOOD safety officer. You can't write rules that prevent
> stupid. I know, I've seen too much of it!
> 
> cog
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: archers-bounces at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org
> [mailto:archers-bounces at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org] On Behalf Of Garth G.
> Groff
> Sent: Friday, August 27, 2010 10:46 AM
> To: Archers at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org
> Subject: Re: [Archers] Dropped arrows rule
> 
> 
> Lord Siegfried,
> 
> Thanks for the clarification. On searching my failing memory, I think 
> counting a dropped arrow as a shot was the way we did it in college (a 
> very long, long time ago!). That was then, this is now.
> 
> When it comes to making more rules, I completely agree with you. That 
> could go on ad nauseum. And since there is now no rule concerning this, 
> it is better to let sleeping dogs lie.
> 
> As for stooping over to pick up dropped arrows, I'm still against this 
> purely as a safety matter. What I don't want to see is any archer on my 
> line rooting around under somebody else's legs for an arrow. And if an 
> arrow is beyond the archer's lead foot, I want it to stay there. Your 
> bolt quiver is a different situation than I was thinking of, and the 
> same is true for drawing arrows from ground quivers.
> 
> Kind regards,
> 
> 
> Lord Mungo Napier, Shire of Isenfir Target Archery Marshal.
> 
> Siegfried wrote:
>> Greetings Mungo ... I'll chime in with my experiences/thoughts
>>
>> On the 'counts as a shot':
>>
>> I've never seen that applied in the SCA. If you fumble and drop
>> something, whoops, grab another from your quiver. So no, tradition
>> indicates that if you didn't 'shoot it', it wasn't a 'shot'. We
>> shouldn't be trying to find ways to penalize shooters, instead of 
>> letting them have fun.
>>
>> (In fact, I've seen this applied so far as to discount any 'thrown' 
>> arrows, on purpose or by accident as well. Since again, if it wasn't 
>> shot, it wasn't shot)
>>
>> On the safety rule:
>>
>> You are correct, noone should be reaching over a line to pick up an 
>> arrow.
>>
>> (Of course, the situation is somewhat complicated by "How far away did
>> it drop", etc. As a standing crossbowman, I bend over at a 90degree
> to
>> load my crossbow and draw bolts from a leg quiver. If a bolt drops 
>> right next to my feet, or maybe a foot in front of them, I don't bend
>> any more than normal to snag it. However it's a very different
>> situation when a bolt/arrow falls 3 foot in front of the line, and 
>> someone 'leans out' or 'steps out' to get it. EEEK)
>>
>> And in all honesty, at THAT point, it's covered by the "Noone shall 
>> enter the safety zone during active shooting" bits, so you really 
>> don't need a separate rule.
>>
>> However, also in general, I'd be very hesitant to start listing off 
>> every single "You can't do X" rule. As the list would be ginormous. 
>> You can't turn around with a loaded bow. You can't shoot backwards. 
>> You can't aim your bow at an 80degree angle while drawing it. You 
>> can't poke the guy next to you with an arrow. You can't kick someone 
>> while they are drawing their bow. You can't cut someone's crossbow 
>> string while they are aiming ... etc etc etc etc
>>
>> Such things, IMO, are best left under "Keep a safe line" and "Keep 
>> everyone out of the safety zone" and for the marshal to inform folks 
>> about.
>>
>> Siegfried
> 
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