[Archers] Fwd: Dropped arrows rule

Jay Nardone jaynardone at comcast.net
Fri Aug 27 14:13:25 PDT 2010 

Oh she was shown many times but then she decided to rub elbows in the west
with Royalty. hmph!

 

From: archers-bounces at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org
[mailto:archers-bounces at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org] On Behalf Of
loreleielkins at aol.com
Sent: Friday, August 27, 2010 12:42 PM
To: archers at atlantia.sca.org
Subject: [Archers] Fwd: Dropped arrows rule

 

It looks as if others have answered the question and concerns very
thoroughly. Thank you.  There is lots of good experience on this list.  If
the arrow is dropped, it was not shot and should not count as one of the six
shot for score.  Line Marshals should always use their best judgement and so
should the archers.  Be safe.  Have fun. Ice cream sounds good.  Can we get
ice cream on the Pennsic range next year?

 

Annerose, ask one of the crew to show you the double arrow.  It is not that
difficult and perfectly safe if done correctly.  I put one arrow on under my
nocking point as I always do.  The second arrow I turn upside down and knock
it above the nocking point.  This way the arrows tend to push off one
another hardly at all and fly straight - (if the feathers on your arrows are
fletched straight and not spiraled.)  Easy to do on a recurve.  Harder to do
on a longbow with a small shelf.  I don't recommend it if you are shooting
off your hand.  (The double arrow is a crowd pleaser if you are doing a
demo.)  

 

Have a great weekend, everyone.

 

Lorelei

-----Original Message-----
From: Anne Rose Smythe <annerosesmythe at gmail.com>
To: John Atkins <cogworks at triad.rr.com>
Cc: Archers at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org; Summer Rain <summerrain.wa at gmail.com>
Sent: Fri, Aug 27, 2010 12:13 pm
Subject: Re: [Archers] Dropped arrows rule

Hi,
Oh yes, each kingdom has different rules, customs, and "the way its always
been done." 

I was specifically referring to the dropped arrow rule - An Tir's Book of
Target, has a specific rule for dropped arrows. 

As this discussion is about dropped arrows and the lack of kingdom wide rule
in Atlantia.

Shooting two arrows at one time..*wide eyes* ..certainly that is a most
dangerous thing, and shouldn't ever be done. "Ducking out of Janyn, Seamus,
and Godai's reach, before she gets boxed about the ears."

Yes, sometimes, its best to just go eat ice cream in the food court. 

Lady Anne Rose Smythe

On Aug 27, 2010 9:03 AM, "John Atkins" <cogworks at triad.rr.com> wrote:
> Lady Anne,
> Unfortunately the rules for SCA activities are not consistent among all
> the kingdoms. Some kingdoms, Atlantia, says for archers to straddle the
> shooting line, some, Trimaris, don't. Some kingdoms, Atlantia, allow
> two arrows for the first shot of a timed round, some don't, Glen Ahbend.
> Some kingdoms, East, allow rifle stocks on crossbows, some, Atlantia,
> don't. These variances in rules do cause some confusion for archers
> when we travel around or go to war. However, getting every single
> kingdom to agree on a set of rules would be harder than controlling the
> weather! The best answer is, learn the rules for your home kingdom.
> When you travel to other kingdoms or war and you get "cautioned" about a
> minor rule infraction (hopefully not something as drastic as your
> crossbow has a rifle stock and that kingdom does not allow them) accept
> it and live with it. I don't say this as a chastisement, just a caution
> of what you can expect to encounter within the SCA. I can still see
> Enequy's face when the marshal at Gulf Wars told him he could not start
> his timed round with two arrows. Picture a kid who just had their ice
> cream cone taken away!
> 
> Now to the issue of shooting two arrows at once, perhaps this comes
> merely as a heads up but take it as you will. During the first part of
> the first week at this year's Pennsic I was on the range with about 3
> other folks. They were shooting other stations but we crossed paths a
> few times. One fellow told me he was going to ask Squirrel if he could
> set and run the Champion's Shoot next year. I say this only to put him
> in context if you know who he is as I have long since forgotten his
> name. He was discussing the shooting of two arrows. His point is that
> it is a highly dangerous act. I gently told him a lady in my area, our
> very own Lorelei, does it all the time and safely. To emphasize his
> point, he nocked two arrows and shot them saying "there, see? You can't
> control them. Look at that spread!" He shot his arrows about 25 yards
> and they landed about 1 1/2 feet apart. I again told him of Lorelei and
> that she regularly gets her two arrows inside the red at 20 yards. But
> his point was that he plans on taking his "issue" to the highest
> authority and have it outlawed. He maintains that there are archers who
> can safely shoot two arrows but if a novice saw this and tried it that
> it would digress into a very unsafe act. I then asked him about the
> holding of arrows in the bow hand during a speed round. That seemed to
> perplex him at which point I did my exit stage left and continued
> shooting. I relay this story only in that there may be a remote
> possibility that a rule may be considered from the SCA marshal
> concerning shooting two arrows at the same time. My position is that
> those I know who do it are no safety hazard to the range. If a person
> is having difficulty doing it, and it should be obvious, a safe, good
> marshal will step in and tell them not to do it. Much like stepping
> over the line to pick up a dropped arrow.
> 
> cog
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Summer Rain [mailto:summerrain.wa at gmail.com] 
> Sent: Friday, August 27, 2010 11:41 AM
> To: John Atkins
> Cc: Garth G. Groff; Archers at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org
> Subject: Re: [Archers] Dropped arrows rule
> 
> 
> 
> Hi,
> I'm going to chime in. As a new archer, I was told to leave a dropped
> arrow on the ground regardless of where it landed. I thought it was
> already in the rules. 
> 
> If you look at other kingdom archery rules, they specifically mention
> dropped arrows. Please remember, that for a new archer, it doesn't
> matter where the arrow lands, if they are taught it is okay to pick it
> up in one instance,and not another, it can become second nature to stoop
> and pick one up, without forthought of safety.
> 
> My thought and what I was taught was if an arrow is on the ground, it
> stays there until all bows are down. 
> 
> Now, what about bounced arrows?
> 
> In Service,
> Lady Anne Rose Smythe
> Novice
> 
> 
> On Aug 27, 2010 8:13 AM, "John Atkins" <cogworks at triad.rr.com> wrote:
>> I'm in agreement about the dropped arrow doesn't count thoughts here.
>> We ARE out here for the fun of it, not to penalize folks.
>> 
>> As for the stepping over the line, we have a rule to cover that. As
> for
>> picking up a shaft at one's feet, to me this goes right back to the
>> quality of the marshal running the line. I have seen marshals
> "running"
>> the line while sitting under a sun shade 10 feet back and 20 feet off
>> the end of the line. I have seen marshals, at Pennsic, so involved in
>> "teaching/instructing" someone they are not watching the line. To my
>> way of thinking these are marshals who should have their warrants
>> pulled. A marshal is a safety officer. We have some basic rules to
>> fall back on but, as stated in the rules, the marshal is the final
> word
>> on the range. i.e. atlatl can occur on the arhcery range if the
> marshal
>> is comfortable with it, otherwise no atlatl. Not everyone who
> expresses
>> an interest in becoming a marshal should be warranted as a marshal.
>> There has to be a judgement on the warranting body of the individual's
>> ability to be a GOOD safety officer. You can't write rules that
> prevent
>> stupid. I know, I've seen too much of it!
>> 
>> cog
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: archers-bounces at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org
>> [mailto:archers-bounces at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org] On Behalf Of Garth
> G.
>> Groff
>> Sent: Friday, August 27, 2010 10:46 AM
>> To: Archers at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org
>> Subject: Re: [Archers] Dropped arrows rule
>> 
>> 
>> Lord Siegfried,
>> 
>> Thanks for the clarification. On searching my failing memory, I think 
>> counting a dropped arrow as a shot was the way we did it in college (a
> 
>> very long, long time ago!). That was then, this is now.
>> 
>> When it comes to making more rules, I completely agree with you. That 
>> could go on ad nauseum. And since there is now no rule concerning
> this, 
>> it is better to let sleeping dogs lie.
>> 
>> As for stooping over to pick up dropped arrows, I'm still against this
> 
>> purely as a safety matter. What I don't want to see is any archer on
> my 
>> line rooting around under somebody else's legs for an arrow. And if an
> 
>> arrow is beyond the archer's lead foot, I want it to stay there. Your 
>> bolt quiver is a different situation than I was thinking of, and the 
>> same is true for drawing arrows from ground quivers.
>> 
>> Kind regards,
>> 
>> 
>> Lord Mungo Napier, Shire of Isenfir Target Archery Marshal.
>> 
>> Siegfried wrote:
>>> Greetings Mungo ... I'll chime in with my experiences/thoughts
>>>
>>> On the 'counts as a shot':
>>>
>>> I've never seen that applied in the SCA. If you fumble and drop
>>> something, whoops, grab another from your quiver. So no, tradition
>>> indicates that if you didn't 'shoot it', it wasn't a 'shot'. We
>>> shouldn't be trying to find ways to penalize shooters, instead of 
>>> letting them have fun.
>>>
>>> (In fact, I've seen this applied so far as to discount any 'thrown' 
>>> arrows, on purpose or by accident as well. Since again, if it wasn't 
>>> shot, it wasn't shot)
>>>
>>> On the safety rule:
>>>
>>> You are correct, noone should be reaching over a line to pick up an 
>>> arrow.
>>>
>>> (Of course, the situation is somewhat complicated by "How far away
> did
>>> it drop", etc. As a standing crossbowman, I bend over at a 90degree
>> to
>>> load my crossbow and draw bolts from a leg quiver. If a bolt drops 
>>> right next to my feet, or maybe a foot in front of them, I don't bend
>>> any more than normal to snag it. However it's a very different
>>> situation when a bolt/arrow falls 3 foot in front of the line, and 
>>> someone 'leans out' or 'steps out' to get it. EEEK)
>>>
>>> And in all honesty, at THAT point, it's covered by the "Noone shall 
>>> enter the safety zone during active shooting" bits, so you really 
>>> don't need a separate rule.
>>>
>>> However, also in general, I'd be very hesitant to start listing off 
>>> every single "You can't do X" rule. As the list would be ginormous. 
>>> You can't turn around with a loaded bow. You can't shoot backwards. 
>>> You can't aim your bow at an 80degree angle while drawing it. You 
>>> can't poke the guy next to you with an arrow. You can't kick someone 
>>> while they are drawing their bow. You can't cut someone's crossbow 
>>> string while they are aiming ... etc etc etc etc
>>>
>>> Such things, IMO, are best left under "Keep a safe line" and "Keep 
>>> everyone out of the safety zone" and for the marshal to inform folks 
>>> about.
>>>
>>> Siegfried
>> 
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