[Archers] Fw: Re: Dropped arrows rule
deallac at juno.com
deallac at juno.com
Fri Aug 27 21:14:51 PDT 2010
Whoops.... meant to send this to the whole list :)
Dealla
---------- Forwarded Message ----------
From: "deallac at juno.com" <deallac at juno.com>
To: cogworks at triad.rr.com
Subject: Re: [Archers] Dropped arrows rule
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2010 04:13:26 GMT
Felt that I would chime in :)
I have been doing this for 20+ years in the SCA - longer than
many shorter than some :), but during that time, the dropped
arrow has never been counted as shot at any Atlantian event
that I participated in. Okay, this seems to be the consensus :)
What I have also, seen, though, is that .... AT THE MARSHAL'S
DISCRETION... once the line is finished shooting, if the archer needs
the arrow to have a full set for however many were being shot, he or
she MIGHT be allowed to pick up the arrow (usually, it must be in
reach from the line) and shoot it as part of the round. Please note.....
AT THE MARSHAL'S DISCRETION.
As for the multiple arrows, this has also been a Marshal's
decision, based on what can be shown by the archer.
At Pennsic, for most of the years I have gone (yes, this
was the first I missed since 1989 :( ), it was allowed
during the Champions shoot only (figuring that if the archer
was good enough to make a Champions team, s/he should
be safe enough to handle the multiple arrows. I don't remember
there ever being a time where multiples were allowed in the
Populace shoots. (specialty shoots are another thing)
I can't imagine why someone would want to totally outlaw
them, if that gentle is given the position of running the
Champions range, I would say that it would be up to
him or her (there would probably be complaints though,
from many :)).
Personally, I have shot multiple arrows using different
styles - like Lorelei's, one above, and one below the nock;
2 right next to each other, with nock fletches opposite to
each other; and others. Show a marshal you can be safe,
and let the marshal make the decision, is my personal
opinion ;)
Dealla
---------- Original Message ----------
From: "John Atkins" <cogworks at triad.rr.com>
To: "'Summer Rain'" <summerrain.wa at gmail.com>
Cc: Archers at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org
Subject: Re: [Archers] Dropped arrows rule
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 12:03:33 -0400
Lady Anne, Unfortunately the rules for SCA activities are not consistent among all the kingdoms. Some kingdoms, Atlantia, says for archers to straddle the shooting line, some, Trimaris, don't. Some kingdoms, Atlantia, allow two arrows for the first shot of a timed round, some don't, Glen Ahbend. Some kingdoms, East, allow rifle stocks on crossbows, some, Atlantia, don't. These variances in rules do cause some confusion for archers when we travel around or go to war. However, getting every single kingdom to agree on a set of rules would be harder than controlling the weather! The best answer is, learn the rules for your home kingdom. When you travel to other kingdoms or war and you get "cautioned" about a minor rule infraction (hopefully not something as drastic as your crossbow has a rifle stock and that kingdom does not allow them) accept it and live with it. I don't say this as a chastisement, just a caution of what you can expect to encounter within the SCA. I can still see Enequy's face when the marshal at Gulf Wars told him he could not start his timed round with two arrows. Picture a kid who just had their ice cream cone taken away! Now to the issue of shooting two arrows at once, perhaps this comes merely as a heads up but take it as you will. During the first part of the first week at this year's Pennsic I was on the range with about 3 other folks. They were shooting other stations but we crossed paths a few times. One fellow told me he was going to ask Squirrel if he could set and run the Champion's Shoot next year. I say this only to put him in context if you know who he is as I have long since forgotten his name. He was discussing the shooting of two arrows. His point is that it is a highly dangerous act. I gently told him a lady in my area, our very own Lorelei, does it all the time and safely. To emphasize his point, he nocked two arrows and shot them saying "there, see? You can't control them. Look at that spread!" He shot his arrows about 25 yards and they landed about 1 1/2 feet apart. I again told him of Lorelei and that she regularly gets her two arrows inside the red at 20 yards. But his point was that he plans on taking his "issue" to the highest authority and have it outlawed. He maintains that there are archers who can safely shoot two arrows but if a novice saw this and tried it that it would digress into a very unsafe act. I then asked him about the holding of arrows in the bow hand during a speed round. That seemed to perplex him at which point I did my exit stage left and continued shooting. I relay this story only in that there may be a remote possibility that a rule may be considered from the SCA marshal concerning shooting two arrows at the same time. My position is that those I know who do it are no safety hazard to the range. If a person is having difficulty doing it, and it should be obvious, a safe, good marshal will step in and tell them not to do it. Much like stepping over the line to pick up a dropped arrow. cog -----Original Message-----
From: Summer Rain [mailto:summerrain.wa at gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, August 27, 2010 11:41 AM
To: John Atkins
Cc: Garth G. Groff; Archers at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org
Subject: Re: [Archers] Dropped arrows rule
Hi,
I'm going to chime in. As a new archer, I was told to leave a dropped arrow on the ground regardless of where it landed. I thought it was already in the rules.
If you look at other kingdom archery rules, they specifically mention dropped arrows. Please remember, that for a new archer, it doesn't matter where the arrow lands, if they are taught it is okay to pick it up in one instance,and not another, it can become second nature to stoop and pick one up, without forthought of safety.
My thought and what I was taught was if an arrow is on the ground, it stays there until all bows are down.
Now, what about bounced arrows?
In Service,
Lady Anne Rose Smythe
Novice
On Aug 27, 2010 8:13 AM, "John Atkins" <cogworks at triad.rr.com> wrote:
> I'm in agreement about the dropped arrow doesn't count thoughts here.
> We ARE out here for the fun of it, not to penalize folks.
>
> As for the stepping over the line, we have a rule to cover that. As for
> picking up a shaft at one's feet, to me this goes right back to the
> quality of the marshal running the line. I have seen marshals "running"
> the line while sitting under a sun shade 10 feet back and 20 feet off
> the end of the line. I have seen marshals, at Pennsic, so involved in
> "teaching/instructing" someone they are not watching the line. To my
> way of thinking these are marshals who should have their warrants
> pulled. A marshal is a safety officer. We have some basic rules to
> fall back on but, as stated in the rules, the marshal is the final word
> on the range. i.e. atlatl can occur on the arhcery range if the marshal
> is comfortable with it, otherwise no atlatl. Not everyone who expresses
> an interest in becoming a marshal should be warranted as a marshal.
> There has to be a judgement on the warranting body of the individual's
> ability to be a GOOD safety officer. You can't write rules that prevent
> stupid. I know, I've seen too much of it!
>
> cog
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: archers-bounces at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org
> [mailto:archers-bounces at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org] On Behalf Of Garth G.
> Groff
> Sent: Friday, August 27, 2010 10:46 AM
> To: Archers at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org
> Subject: Re: [Archers] Dropped arrows rule
>
>
> Lord Siegfried,
>
> Thanks for the clarification. On searching my failing memory, I think
> counting a dropped arrow as a shot was the way we did it in college (a
> very long, long time ago!). That was then, this is now.
>
> When it comes to making more rules, I completely agree with you. That
> could go on ad nauseum. And since there is now no rule concerning this,
> it is better to let sleeping dogs lie.
>
> As for stooping over to pick up dropped arrows, I'm still against this
> purely as a safety matter. What I don't want to see is any archer on my
> line rooting around under somebody else's legs for an arrow. And if an
> arrow is beyond the archer's lead foot, I want it to stay there. Your
> bolt quiver is a different situation than I was thinking of, and the
> same is true for drawing arrows from ground quivers.
>
> Kind regards,
>
>
> Lord Mungo Napier, Shire of Isenfir Target Archery Marshal.
>
> Siegfried wrote:
>> Greetings Mungo ... I'll chime in with my experiences/thoughts
>>
>> On the 'counts as a shot':
>>
>> I've never seen that applied in the SCA. If you fumble and drop
>> something, whoops, grab another from your quiver. So no, tradition
>> indicates that if you didn't 'shoot it', it wasn't a 'shot'. We
>> shouldn't be trying to find ways to penalize shooters, instead of
>> letting them have fun.
>>
>> (In fact, I've seen this applied so far as to discount any 'thrown'
>> arrows, on purpose or by accident as well. Since again, if it wasn't
>> shot, it wasn't shot)
>>
>> On the safety rule:
>>
>> You are correct, noone should be reaching over a line to pick up an
>> arrow.
>>
>> (Of course, the situation is somewhat complicated by "How far away did
>> it drop", etc. As a standing crossbowman, I bend over at a 90degree
> to
>> load my crossbow and draw bolts from a leg quiver. If a bolt drops
>> right next to my feet, or maybe a foot in front of them, I don't bend
>> any more than normal to snag it. However it's a very different
>> situation when a bolt/arrow falls 3 foot in front of the line, and
>> someone 'leans out' or 'steps out' to get it. EEEK)
>>
>> And in all honesty, at THAT point, it's covered by the "Noone shall
>> enter the safety zone during active shooting" bits, so you really
>> don't need a separate rule.
>>
>> However, also in general, I'd be very hesitant to start listing off
>> every single "You can't do X" rule. As the list would be ginormous.
>> You can't turn around with a loaded bow. You can't shoot backwards.
>> You can't aim your bow at an 80degree angle while drawing it. You
>> can't poke the guy next to you with an arrow. You can't kick someone
>> while they are drawing their bow. You can't cut someone's crossbow
>> string while they are aiming ... etc etc etc etc
>>
>> Such things, IMO, are best left under "Keep a safe line" and "Keep
>> everyone out of the safety zone" and for the marshal to inform folks
>> about.
>>
>> Siegfried
>
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