[MR] [AtlantianHeralds] A question of Protocol regarding toasts

[logan]

dagobert,

i think you are reading way more into all of this than is really there.  i
dont think anyone is worried about who is being toasted in what order and
especially anything to do with self aggrandizement.  seems to me to simply
be a discussion related to the ranking system that is part of our society
with folks sharing differing viewpoints.  without knowing differing
viewpoints, "picking nits" as you refer to it, there is little chance for
people to be on the same page when it comes to some of the inner workings of
the sca.  clearly there are some folks that feel that a landed baron/ess
outrank royalty.  this is strange to me and, as such, i have offered a
different opinion in the hope that we can all come to an understanding.  is
it important?  of course not, its not real.  however, i have seen people
become very uncomfortable when they unintentionally disregarded some
culturally important thing in the sca (like precedence) simply because they
didnt know or were told something that was incorrect.  thats why its
important to discuss different opinions and views.  i certainly dont think
this topic has been anything but that.

regards
logan

"I never did give them hell. I just told the truth, and they thought it was
hell." 
Harry S Truman 
"If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his
vengeance need not be feared"
Niccolo Machiavelli
For your amouring needs please visit:
www.ebonwoulfe.com/armory.htm

www.ebonwoulfe.com

For worldwide listings of fighter practices please visit:
www.fighterpractice.com

-----Original Message-----
From: atlantia-bounces at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org
[mailto:atlantia-bounces at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org] On Behalf Of Chris and
Sue
Sent: Thursday, May 13, 2010 11:17 AM
To: atlantia at atlantia.sca.org
Subject: Re: [MR] [AtlantianHeralds] A question of Protocol regarding toasts

So, there really has to be a rule, a ruling, and an "I'm right" attached to
this?  This is the sort of thing that has me walking away from the SCA right
now - the importance placed on the imaginary game aspect of it instead of
placing an importance on just being good to each other, being chivalrous,
and honoring what the Society stands for instead of what personal
aggrandizement it can get for you.  Does it really matter if someone toasts
you second or first?  Why don't we get back to the actual charter of the SCA
and recreate medieval history instead of picking nits regarding who is more
important than who in a volunteer organization?

Dagobert

-----Original Message-----
From: atlantia-bounces at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org
[mailto:atlantia-bounces at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org] On Behalf Of Cian Conor
MacQuaid
Sent: Thursday, May 13, 2010 11:05 AM
To: Merry Rose
Subject: Re: [MR] [AtlantianHeralds] A question of Protocol regarding toasts

The Authority of the Baronage derives directly from the Crown and is
tied to a specific Barony. Outside that Barony they fall to the position
you have so exhaustively documented, but within their granted demesne
they rank immediately behind the Crown.

The Heirs have only future authority, and none to act on their own
behalf. This does not account for the fact that they are generally
granted deference due their impending elevation, but still no actual
authority.

None of the other lists account for the difference between in or out of
their Barony, as Corpora does, and they are therefore an incomplete
accounting. Corpora wins, in any case.

Cian

On 5/13/2010 9:40 AM, logan wrote:
> then why does the assumed rank of a landed baron/ess end when they cross
> into the zip code of another barony?  why does the landed baron/ess follow
> the heirs who follow the crown when in procession?  surely a ceremonial
head
> of a sub group doesnt outrank the heirs apparent of the kingdom.  serving
as
> a landed baron/ess is recognized by a grant of arms, not a patent which is
> bestowed upon those that have served as royalty.  this would also indicate
> some placement, by rank, of the two.  and, it certainly wasnt that way
> historically either.  here is just one example....  this, from the book of
> kervynge in 1508 on serving by rank, which puts the head(s) of the church
> above all other estates puts a baron pretty far down the list: 
========================================================================
                   The Merry Rose Tavern at Cheapside
    List Info: http://merryrose.atlantia.sca.org/
  Submissions: Atlantia at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org
Subscriptions:
http://seahorse.atlantia.sca.org/listinfo.cgi/atlantia-atlantia.sca.org

========================================================================
                   The Merry Rose Tavern at Cheapside
    List Info: http://merryrose.atlantia.sca.org/
  Submissions: Atlantia at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org
Subscriptions:
http://seahorse.atlantia.sca.org/listinfo.cgi/atlantia-atlantia.sca.org