[MR] [AtlantianHeralds] A question of Protocol regarding toasts

Thu May 13 06:40:45 PDT 2010

then why does the assumed rank of a landed baron/ess end when they cross
into the zip code of another barony?  why does the landed baron/ess follow
the heirs who follow the crown when in procession?  surely a ceremonial head
of a sub group doesnt outrank the heirs apparent of the kingdom.  serving as
a landed baron/ess is recognized by a grant of arms, not a patent which is
bestowed upon those that have served as royalty.  this would also indicate
some placement, by rank, of the two.  and, it certainly wasnt that way
historically either.  here is just one example....  this, from the book of
kervynge in 1508 on serving by rank, which puts the head(s) of the church
above all other estates puts a baron pretty far down the list: 

Here foloweth of the Marshall and the ussher.

the Marshall and the usshere muste knowe all the estates of the chyrche and
the hyghe estate of the kynge with the blode royall.
The estate of a Pope hath no pere
The estate of an Emperour is nexte
The estate of kynge
The estate of a cardynall
The estate of a kynges sone a prynce
The estate of an archebysshop
The estate of a duke
The estate of a bysshop
The estate of a Marques
The estate of an erle
The estate of a vycount
The estate of a baron
The estate of an abbot with a myter
The estate of the thre chefe Juges and the mayre of London.
The estate of an abbot without a myter
The estate of a knyght bacheler
The estate of pryour dene archedeken or knyght
etc etc etc

other kingdoms list rank by order of precedence and further agree that
royalty outrank all others.  this, from the kingdom of drachenwald:
http://www.drachenwald.sca.org/files/herald/titles.html

Royalty:

1. Sovereign and Consort. These are the rulers of the kingdom, referred to
collectively as The Crown. The Sovereign is the person who won crown
tourney, and the consort is the person for whom they fought. The male is
always King, but may not necessarily be the sovereign. While as of this
writing (Spring 2002) every Sovereign of Drachenwald has been male, and
therefore King of Drachenwald, and every Consort has been female, and
therefore Queen of Drachenwald, that doesn't mean it won't change in the
future. They are referred to as Their Majesties or Their Royal Majesties.
They both wear crowns.

2. Crown Prince and Crown Princess. These are the heirs to the throne. They
are referred to as Their Highness or Their Royal Highness. They both wear
coronets.

Grant of Arms Level:

9. Territorial Barons and Baronesses. These are the ceremonial heads of the
Barony. They are called "Your Excellency", or "Baron/ess <Name>", or
"Baron/ess <Name of Group>". Baronies rank by the age of the Barony. The
Barony of Knights Crossing is the oldest in Drachenwald. Note: within their
own barony, and while acting as baron/ess (and only then) territorial
baron/ess outrank peers, and everyone but royalty. They wear coronets of
whatever type they choose (there is no standard form) so long as it is not
embattled or does not have strawberry leaves. They frequently, but not
always, use a coronet with pearls.

and from an tirs book of law:
http://antir.sca.org/Pubs/Laws2005/kingdomonly2005.pdf

ARTICLE V - PRECEDENCE, AWARDS AND ORDERS
A. The Order of Precedence in the Kingdom of An Tir shall be as follows:
Sovereign and Consort
Crown Prince and Crown Princess
Territorial Princes and Princesses
Tanists and Tanistas to Territorial Principalities
Kingdom Champions
Holders of the Lion of An Tir
Dukes and Duchesses
Counts and Countesses
Viscounts and Viscountesses
Territorial Barons and Baronesses
Members of the Orders of the Chivalry, Laurel and Pelican

the west kingdom lists the order, by rank, for "grand marches" and has
kingdom officers outranking landed barons/esses:
http://heralds.westkingdom.org/Awards/Precedence.htm

West Kingdom Royalty: 
 The King and Queen of the West  
    The Crown Prince and Crown Princess of the West  
 The Prince and Princess of The Mists
   The Lord and Lady of The Mists

 The Prince and Princess of Cynagua
   The Lord and Lady of Cynagua

 The Prince and Princess of Oertha
   The Lord and Lady Borealis

Visiting Royalty from Other Kingdoms in this order:
(includes King and Queen, Crown Prince and Princess, etc.)  
 The Kingdom of the East

 The Kingdom of the Middle 
 The Kingdom of Atenveldt
 The Kingdom of Meridies
 The Kingdom of Caid
 The Kingdom of Ansteorra
 The Kingdom of Atlantia
 The Kingdom of An Tir
 The Kingdom of Calontir
 The Kingdom of Trimaris
 The Kingdom of the Outlands
 The Kingdom of Drachenwald
 The Kingdom of Artemisia
 The Kingdom of Æthelmarc
 The Kingdom of Ealdormere
 The Kingdom of Lochac
 The Kingdom of Northshield
 The Kingdom of Gleann Abhann

Great Officers of State: 
 The Seneschal  
 The Vesper Principal Herald  
 The Earl Marshal  
 The Minister of Arts  
 The Minister of Sciences  
 The Chancellor of the Exchequer  
 The Chronicler  
 The Chirurgeon  
 The Constable  

The Barons and/or Baronesses of:
(in order of creation)  
 The Barony of Allyshia  
 The Barony of Eskalya  
 The Barony of Tarnmist  
 The Barony of the Westermark  
 The Barony of Winter's Gate  
 The Barony of Vinhold  
 The Barony of Fett Burg  
 The Barony of Darkwood  
 The Barony of The Far West  
 The Barony of Rivenoak  
 The Barony of Selviergard  

Armigers:
(By date within each ranking)  
 Dukes and Duchesses  
 Counts and Countesses  
 Viscounts and Viscountesses  
 Members of the Orders of Chivalry, The Laurel and The Pelican  
 Members of the Order of the Golden Poppy

 Members of the Royal Missle Company, Western White Scarf and the Western
Gold Scarf
   (Include Awards that give Grants of Arms from other Kingdoms here)  
 Holders of Grants of Arms  
 Members of the Order of the Western Lily  
 Members of the Orders of the Leaf of Merit, the Rose Leaf and the Ash Leaf
   (Include Awards that give Awards of Arms from other Kingdoms here)  
 Barons and Baronesses of the Court  
 Holders of Awards of Arms  

the next one that showed up, in order, on my search was adenveldt which has
a very similar listing of precedence as the west kingdoms.  it can be viewed
at:  http://www.atenveldt.org/Heraldry/OrderofMarch.aspx and has territorial
barons/esses listed below all crowns, heirs, crown prices/esses, and even
foreign ambassadors.  anyway, its pretty clear that the generally accepted
order of precedence in the sca world puts royalty above grant level
positions as far as "rank" is concerned.  i went down the list that came up
in my search, in order, and after skimming the next 10 or so search results
found them all to be in agreement.  

regards
logan

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hell." 
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vengeance need not be feared"
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-----Original Message-----
From: atlantia-bounces at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org
[mailto:atlantia-bounces at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org] On Behalf Of Terri
Morgan
Sent: Thursday, May 13, 2010 1:42 AM
To: Merry Rose
Subject: Re: [MR] [AtlantianHeralds] A question of Protocol regarding toasts

> How is it possible that Royalty do not outrank landed
> baronage in their own barony, who *hold*the lands for
> Royalty? The Prince and Princess are The Heirs, the
> future King and Queen, not the representatives of the
> current King and Queen.  I don't get how Territorial
> Baron and Baronesses out rank The Heirs.  The Royal
> Family is the Royal Family.
> Anyone?
> -Rowan

>From Corpora (highlighting mine):
Baronies and Provinces: Baronies and provinces are large branches within and
subject to the administration of a kingdom (or principality, if any). They
are alike in status and in the ability to administer other branches within
their borders, but differ in that baronies possess a Baron and/or Baroness,
ceremonial representatives appointed by the Crown, and therefore have the
ability to create and administer awards, while provinces do not.

and (from section V. (B)):
1. The basic duties of the Baron and/or Baroness are ceremonial in nature in
reflecting the royal presence in the barony. The Crown may assign additional
duties and responsibilities, according to the laws and customs of the
kingdom.

The Heirs are heirs - just as the eldest child of a ruling family does not
have the same status and privileges as their head of family has, and can be
over-ruled by a designated appointee of their Head of Family, so too our
Royal Heirs. They are not, unless specifically appointed to be so,
representatives of the King and Queen. They are 'the King and Queen in
trust, not yet in actuality' while the Territorial Baron and Baroness, in
their home barony, are, in fact, the living representatives of the King and
Queen. That they will become the representatives of the Heirs in time is a
given - but at the time of the Heirs visit, they are not yet so.

Besides - I go with Duchess Rachel on this: "Listen to the Rhi."

   When the person most trained in protocol, whose job it is to sort it out
for the rest of us and teach it to those who are trained in other stuff,
say, "this is how it is", well, then...

Hrothny

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