[MR] How much damage would rattan do?
David Austin
grandaustino at gmail.com
Wed Sep 16 13:32:20 PDT 2009
Historically speaking bosuns on British ships of war used to hit the
hands with rattan to keep them motivated. I don't imagine that they
pulled their shots very much, and the sailors certainly kept working.
I'm not saying I would volunteer to be hit without armour, but I
wouldn't rely on it to disable a foe either. The purpose of the laws
we are discussing seem clear. The consequences of having a law that
would legitimize some overly aggressive people blowing away anyone who
happens onto their property would be disastrous. After all if you
kill that person it's hard to figure out their intentions afterward.
Morgant
On Wed, Sep 16, 2009 at 3:00 PM,
<atlantia-request at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org> wrote:
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> 1. Re: Rattan vs steel - or vs flesh and bone (Garth G. Groff)
> 2. Re: kinda off topic ? (Gina Shelley)
> 3. Re: How much damage would rattan do? (Steven Chang)
> 4. Re: Rattan vs steel - or vs flesh and bone (Smith CTR Jeffrey C)
> 5. Re: Rattan vs steel - or vs flesh and bone (Medwyn)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2009 14:39:53 -0400
> From: "Garth G. Groff" <ggg9y at virginia.edu>
> To: atlantia at atlantia.sca.org
> Subject: Re: [MR] Rattan vs steel - or vs flesh and bone
> Message-ID: <4AB130F9.8010905 at virginia.edu>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> Friends,
>
> I will put .02 more into this thread and then keep my peace. His Grace
> Logan is more or less correct, as far as I understand the law. This came
> up repeatedly when I was attending the police academy, and later in law
> enforcement classes I took at a local college. At that time, in NO state
> in the US (according to my instructors) could you use deadly force to
> defend personal property or one's dwelling. Period. Deadly force may be
> used only to defend one's own life or that of another when the threat is
> immediate and dire, and that is often a tricky point of law and the
> facts in the case. Let's hope none of us are ever put in such a situation.
>
> Kind regards,
>
>
> Mungo Napier, Archer of Mallard Lodge
> (mka Garth Groff)
>
>
>
>
> logan wrote:
>> no. in nc you may not use deadly force to protect property. you can, of
>> course, use deadly force to protect yourself or someone else which is
>> why if
>> you see someone trying to enter your home you have the right to shoot
>> them
>> dead since you cannot determine if they mean you harm or not. if you
>> wake
>> up to a guy walking out of your home with your jewelry box you may not,
>> legally, use deadly force. thats why its best for the police to only
>> hear
>> one side of the story if someone invades (or attempts to) your home.
>>
>> regards
>> logan
>>
>> "I never did give them hell. I just told the truth, and they thought
>> it was
>> hell." Harry S Truman "If an injury has to be done to a man it should
>> be so severe that his
>> vengeance need not be feared"
>> Niccolo Machiavelli
>> For your amouring needs please visit:
>> www.ebonwoulfe.com/armory.htm
>>
>> www.ebonwoulfe.com
>>
>> For worldwide listings of fighter practices please visit:
>> www.fighterpractice.com
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: atlantia-bounces at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org
>> [mailto:atlantia-bounces at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org] On Behalf Of Marybeth
>> Lavrakas
>> Sent: Wednesday, September 16, 2009 2:01 PM
>> To: atlantia at atlantia.sca.org
>> Subject: Re: [MR] Rattan vs steel - or vs flesh and bone
>>
>>
>>
>>> So basically, the law is that we just let them come in and
>>> take whatever
>>> they want; there's something wrong with that, imho.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> The law on that varies from state to state. I'm pretty sure that NC is a
>> state where you are allowed to defend your property; there have been a
>> couple recent events where homeowners shot intruders and I think
>> that's what
>> I read in the newspaper articles (ie, that no charges would be filed
>> against
>> the homeowner).
>>
>> Kateryn Rous
>>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2009 18:38:56 +0000
> From: Gina Shelley <paintedwheel at hotmail.com>
> To: <atlantia at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org>
> Subject: Re: [MR] kinda off topic ?
> Message-ID: <COL116-W65FC921B9FD9FE4D9D969EDFE20 at phx.gbl>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
>
> Not me...but I want to know. Please tell! :-DDD
>
>
>
> I'd have paid good money to see that!
>
>
>
> Dulcy
>>
>> Heh - who remembers the time Brandon Lee, Bruce Lee's son, surprised a burglar in his home?
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Sorcha P.
>>
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Hotmail: Powerful Free email with security by Microsoft.
> http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/171222986/direct/01/
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2009 14:41:48 -0400
> From: Steven Chang <moondragn at gmail.com>
> To: logan <logan at ebonwoulfe.com>
> Cc: atlantia at atlantia.sca.org, jbrmm266 at aol.com
> Subject: Re: [MR] How much damage would rattan do?
> Message-ID:
> <8d350a0a0909161141g46b7f944i29224ada6c7104e9 at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> I think Rodney king received a beating, but it was not meant to kill
> him. Theres a difference. Just like when you are fighting a guy with a
> ratan sword, your opponent's intention isn't to kill or hurt you. Any
> shots you receive to your arm or neck etc is controlled (or supposed
> to be).
>
> I believe there is a difference. I know I can take a guy out with the
> Escrima sticks (also Ratan) without much difficulty. I doubt if
> someone is going to get up if I hit them in the right place.
>
> That said. I don't want the student prosecuted. I just thought it was
> weird that the guy didn't stop after his hand was cut. Maybe that
> statement about how it was a single cut was true. Though the report I
> read was that there were multiple cuts on the chest. I wonder which
> one is accurate.
>
>
>
> On 9/16/09, logan <logan at ebonwoulfe.com> wrote:
>> rodney king was certainly no marital artist or even in shape for that matter
>> and he received dozens of blows from batons, kicks, punches, and electric
>> shock yet he kept going. the human body is an incredibly tough machine and
>> when coupled with adrenaline, endorphins, or drugs can withstand amazing
>> abuse. im just saying that we should be more realistic than to think our
>> rattan batons are adequate tools of defense.
>>
>> regards
>> logan
>>
>> "I never did give them hell. I just told the truth, and they thought it was
>> hell."
>> Harry S Truman
>> "If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his
>> vengeance need not be feared"
>> Niccolo Machiavelli
>> For your amouring needs please visit:
>> www.ebonwoulfe.com/armory.htm
>>
>> www.ebonwoulfe.com
>>
>> For worldwide listings of fighter practices please visit:
>> www.fighterpractice.com
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: atlantia-bounces at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org
>> [mailto:atlantia-bounces at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org] On Behalf Of
>> jbrmm266 at aol.com
>> Sent: Wednesday, September 16, 2009 2:01 PM
>> To: atlantia at atlantia.sca.org
>> Subject: Re: [MR] How much damage would rattan do?
>>
>>
>> Using yourself as an example is not entirely valid.? Your experience in
>> boxing and SCA fighting has taught you how to fight through pain.? As our
>> own experience has, to a greater or lesser degree.
>>
>>
>>
>> We're not talking about a trained martial artist or participant in combat
>> sports like us.? We are a pretty small proportion of the population, and I
>> suspect that we're less likely to be trying to pull stunts like that guy
>> did.
>>
>>
>>
>> Your servant aye
>>
>> Donal
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: logan <logan at ebonwoulfe.com>
>> To: atlantia at atlantia.sca.org
>> Sent: Wed, Sep 16, 2009 1:42 pm
>> Subject: Re: [MR] How much damage would rattan do?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> i never suggested you had to break something, merely that rattan doesnt hit
>> with that much force. and i take full force shots to my
>> arms/ribs/shoulders/neck/etc all the time and keep on going (ie im not on
>> the ground whimpering). our skulls are very tough things and i doubt you
>> could do any real damage to someones skull with rattan. rattan also doesnt
>> usually have enough mass to cause the damage that say a wooden bat would.
>>
>> ;^)
>> regards
>> logan
>>
>> "I never did give them hell. I just told the truth, and they thought it was
>> hell."
>> Harry S Truman
>> "If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his
>> vengeance need not be feared"
>> Niccolo Machiavelli
>> www.ebonwoulfe.com
>> www.fighterpractice.com
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: atlantia-bounces at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org
>> [mailto:atlantia-bounces at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org] On Behalf Of
>> jbrmm266 at aol.com
>> Sent: Wednesday, September 16, 2009 1:23 PM
>> To: atlantia at atlantia.sca.org
>> Subject: [MR] How much damage would rattan do?
>>
>>
>> You don't have to break anything to incapacitate.? The pain of impact of a
>> full-force blow on an arm would probably take they guy out of the fight - or
>> the fight out of the guy, depending on how you look at it - and a blow to
>> the unprotected head . . . I have this image of a smashed pumpkin.
>>
>>
>>
>> Your servant aye
>>
>> Donal
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: logan <logan at ebonwoulfe.com>
>> Cc: 'Merry Rose' <atlantia at atlantia.sca.org>
>> Sent: Wed, Sep 16, 2009 12:58 pm
>> Subject: Re: [MR] Kinda off topic?
>>
>>
>>
>> take one heck of a shot to incapacitate a guy with rattan. given how hard
>> it is to even break a bone with it because of its inherent flexibility
>> beating a man down would be an impressive task indeed! better to own a gun
>> for the bad guys i think.
>>
>> ;^)
>> logan
>>
>>
>> ========================================================================
>> The Merry Rose Tavern at Cheapside
>> List Info: http://merryrose.atlantia.sca.org/
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>> ========================================================================
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>> List Info: http://merryrose.atlantia.sca.org/
>> Submissions: Atlantia at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org
>> Subscriptions:
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>>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2009 14:46:33 -0400
> From: "Smith CTR Jeffrey C" <jeffrey.c.smith.ctr at usmc.mil>
> To: "Merry Rose" <atlantia at atlantia.sca.org>
> Subject: Re: [MR] Rattan vs steel - or vs flesh and bone
> Message-ID:
> <D38A27EAD1811E43B52E9471B11B079FC48597 at mcusquanez08v.mcdsus.mcds.usmc.mil>
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> New Mexico (I am a former resident, and it's where I joined the SCA) has allowed deadly force to protect property by law since 1907, altho' it appears to be unevenly applied by the courts.
>
> Barcsi Janos
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: atlantia-bounces at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org [mailto:atlantia-bounces at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org] On Behalf Of Garth G. Groff
> Sent: Wednesday, September 16, 2009 14:40
> To: atlantia at atlantia.sca.org
> Subject: Re: [MR] Rattan vs steel - or vs flesh and bone
>
> Friends,
>
> I will put .02 more into this thread and then keep my peace. His Grace Logan is more or less correct, as far as I understand the law. This came up repeatedly when I was attending the police academy, and later in law enforcement classes I took at a local college. At that time, in NO state in the US (according to my instructors) could you use deadly force to defend personal property or one's dwelling. Period. Deadly force may be used only to defend one's own life or that of another when the threat is immediate and dire, and that is often a tricky point of law and the facts in the case. Let's hope none of us are ever put in such a situation.
>
> Kind regards,
>
>
> Mungo Napier, Archer of Mallard Lodge
> (mka Garth Groff)
>
>
>
>
> logan wrote:
>> no. in nc you may not use deadly force to protect property. you can,
>> of course, use deadly force to protect yourself or someone else which
>> is why if you see someone trying to enter your home you have the right
>> to shoot them dead since you cannot determine if they mean you harm or
>> not. if you wake up to a guy walking out of your home with your
>> jewelry box you may not, legally, use deadly force. thats why its
>> best for the police to only hear one side of the story if someone
>> invades (or attempts to) your home.
>>
>> regards
>> logan
>>
>> "I never did give them hell. I just told the truth, and they thought
>> it was hell." Harry S Truman "If an injury has to be done to a man it
>> should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared"
>> Niccolo Machiavelli
>> For your amouring needs please visit:
>> www.ebonwoulfe.com/armory.htm
>>
>> www.ebonwoulfe.com
>>
>> For worldwide listings of fighter practices please visit:
>> www.fighterpractice.com
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: atlantia-bounces at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org
>> [mailto:atlantia-bounces at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org] On Behalf Of
>> Marybeth Lavrakas
>> Sent: Wednesday, September 16, 2009 2:01 PM
>> To: atlantia at atlantia.sca.org
>> Subject: Re: [MR] Rattan vs steel - or vs flesh and bone
>>
>>
>>
>>> So basically, the law is that we just let them come in and take
>>> whatever they want; there's something wrong with that, imho.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> The law on that varies from state to state. I'm pretty sure that NC is
>> a state where you are allowed to defend your property; there have been
>> a couple recent events where homeowners shot intruders and I think
>> that's what I read in the newspaper articles (ie, that no charges
>> would be filed against the homeowner).
>>
>> Kateryn Rous
>>
>
> ========================================================================
> The Merry Rose Tavern at Cheapside
> List Info: http://merryrose.atlantia.sca.org/
> Submissions: Atlantia at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org
> Subscriptions: http://seahorse.atlantia.sca.org/listinfo.cgi/atlantia-atlantia.sca.org
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2009 14:53:41 -0400
> From: Medwyn <medwyn.rhyfedd at gmail.com>
> To: atlantia at atlantia.sca.org
> Subject: Re: [MR] Rattan vs steel - or vs flesh and bone
> Message-ID: <4AB13435.2060902 at gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> I believe there may have been some changes in some states since you
> attended. For those interested in learning more, I believe searching on
> "castle doctrine" would provide relevant results
>
> Garth G. Groff wrote:
>> Friends,
>>
>> I will put .02 more into this thread and then keep my peace. His Grace
>> Logan is more or less correct, as far as I understand the law. This
>> came up repeatedly when I was attending the police academy, and later
>> in law enforcement classes I took at a local college. At that time, in
>> NO state in the US (according to my instructors) could you use deadly
>> force to defend personal property or one's dwelling. Period. Deadly
>> force may be used only to defend one's own life or that of another
>> when the threat is immediate and dire, and that is often a tricky
>> point of law and the facts in the case. Let's hope none of us are ever
>> put in such a situation.
>>
>> Kind regards,
>>
>>
>> Mungo Napier, Archer of Mallard Lodge
>> (mka Garth Groff)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> logan wrote:
>>> no. in nc you may not use deadly force to protect property. you
>>> can, of
>>> course, use deadly force to protect yourself or someone else which is
>>> why if
>>> you see someone trying to enter your home you have the right to shoot
>>> them
>>> dead since you cannot determine if they mean you harm or not. if you
>>> wake
>>> up to a guy walking out of your home with your jewelry box you may not,
>>> legally, use deadly force. thats why its best for the police to only
>>> hear
>>> one side of the story if someone invades (or attempts to) your home.
>>>
>>> regards
>>> logan
>>>
>>> "I never did give them hell. I just told the truth, and they thought
>>> it was
>>> hell." Harry S Truman "If an injury has to be done to a man it should
>>> be so severe that his
>>> vengeance need not be feared"
>>> Niccolo Machiavelli
>>> For your amouring needs please visit:
>>> www.ebonwoulfe.com/armory.htm
>>>
>>> www.ebonwoulfe.com
>>>
>>> For worldwide listings of fighter practices please visit:
>>> www.fighterpractice.com
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: atlantia-bounces at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org
>>> [mailto:atlantia-bounces at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org] On Behalf Of
>>> Marybeth
>>> Lavrakas
>>> Sent: Wednesday, September 16, 2009 2:01 PM
>>> To: atlantia at atlantia.sca.org
>>> Subject: Re: [MR] Rattan vs steel - or vs flesh and bone
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> So basically, the law is that we just let them come in and
>>>> take whatever
>>>> they want; there's something wrong with that, imho.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> The law on that varies from state to state. I'm pretty sure that NC is a
>>> state where you are allowed to defend your property; there have been a
>>> couple recent events where homeowners shot intruders and I think
>>> that's what
>>> I read in the newspaper articles (ie, that no charges would be filed
>>> against
>>> the homeowner).
>>>
>>> Kateryn Rous
>>>
>>
>> ========================================================================
>> The Merry Rose Tavern at Cheapside
>> List Info: http://merryrose.atlantia.sca.org/
>> Submissions: Atlantia at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org
>> Subscriptions:
>> http://seahorse.atlantia.sca.org/listinfo.cgi/atlantia-atlantia.sca.org
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> ========================================================================
> The Merry Rose Tavern at Cheapside
> List Info: http://merryrose.atlantia.sca.org/
> Submissions: Atlantia at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org
> Subscriptions: http://seahorse.atlantia.sca.org/listinfo.cgi/atlantia-atlantia.sca.org
>
>
> End of Atlantia Digest, Vol 80, Issue 28
> ****************************************
>
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For I am involved in mankind.
Therefore, send not to know
For whom the bell tolls, It tolls for thee.
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