[MR] Women and the Early Church

[EoganOg at aol.com]

In a message dated 2/27/02 10:52:51 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
Costello53 at aol.com writes:


> Actually the early Christen Church drew much of its financial support from 
> wealthy women.  And women could and did achieve the rank of bishop.  

Evidence for this?  I would guess that any stories of women bishops would 
most likely fall into the category of myth and legend (like the "Pope Joan" 
myth) and not historic fact.  And if we could prove that a woman was a 
bishop, that one case would stand out as an anomaly, and would certainly not 
be the norm, or even an accepted practice.  But, like I said, I seriously 
doubt we can prove that.  What is teh evidecne for it?

You cite the book, _When Women Were Priests_.  Just the title of this book 
makes it sound to me like the author has an agenda, and is not an objective 
scholar.  Who is the author?  Who was the publisher?  What evidence does the 
author cite for this?

This reminded me of a discussion we had some time back on the Albanach 
mailing list, when someone asserted that women could be priests and bishops 
in the early Celtic church.  Their evidence for this came from a booke 
entitled _Celtic Women_  by Peter Ellis.  Here are some snippets of that 
discussion:

---
According to who you read, there were women priests in the Celtic Church, 
women bishops, and even a woman pope once!  Of course, I don't know how 
strong any of these claims are.  Again, let us look to Ellis, our favourite 
author. ;-)  He says there is evidence that they could perform the mass, and 
did.  His evidence for this is a letter from three Roman bishops at Tours 
written to two Breton priests between 515-20 AD.  The letter says, as he 
quotes it, "You celebrate the divine sacrafice of the Mass with the 
assistance of women to whome you give the name conhospitae.  While you 
distribute the Eucharist, they take the chalice and asminister the blood of 
Christ to the people. . . Renounce these abuses....!" 

A few notes.  This letter mentions women *assisting* the priest, not 
performing preisty functions themselves.  According to the description, their 
role may be best described as a deacon, or even as the modern role of 
Extra-ordinary Eucharistic Minister (which women can do, by the way).  Also 
note, this letter was written demanding them to end these abuses.  It in no 
way suggests it was allowed.    
---

and in regards to Ellis's book:
I would caution, however, that Ellis is not a very reliable source. 
He can usually be trusted with regard to specific facts (e.g., if he 
quotes something, that the document quoted does actually say what he 
claims -- though even then there may be some question of translation 
and strategic choices) but his interpretations of those facts leave a 
great deal to be desired. This is a man who concludes that St. Brigid 
must have had a lesbian relationship with a fellow nun based on their 
having shared a bed and that Brigid punished this nun for looking 
appraisingly at a passing young warrior. Women sharing beds is dead 
common -- even _today_ most women think nothing of sharing a bed if 
there is only one available, and the very idea that everyone should 
have their own individual bed has not been universal throughout 
history (and I expect it is still uncommon in some parts of the 
world). And what is so significant about an abbess punishing a nun 
for looking lustfully at a man?!?!? This is exactly what they are 
expected to do -- look after the spiritual welfare of the nuns in 
their care.

I've found Ellis' books to be full of such flawed reasoning, so I 
wouldn't trust his claims about Irish history & society any further 
than I can throw him ;-)
    
---

So, again, I would caution you to take a look at yoru sources.  What is their 
evidence for saying that there were once women priests and bishops?  It would 
have to be extraordinary to challenge the widely accepted belief, not only in 
Church history but among secular historians as well, that only men were 
appointed to these positions.
Aye,
Eogan

Tighearn Eoghan Og mac Labhrainn, OPE, CP
Sacred Stone Pursuivant, Baronial Bard
WWW.ALBANACH.ORG
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1 out of every 4 babies in America dies of CHOICE
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