<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"><FONT SIZE=2>In a message dated 2/27/02 10:52:51 PM Eastern Standard Time, Costello53@aol.com writes:
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<BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Actually the early Christen Church drew much of its financial support from
<BR>wealthy women. And women could and did achieve the rank of bishop. </BLOCKQUOTE>
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<BR>Evidence for this? I would guess that any stories of women bishops would most likely fall into the category of myth and legend (like the "Pope Joan" myth) and not historic fact. And if we could prove that a woman was a bishop, that one case would stand out as an anomaly, and would certainly not be the norm, or even an accepted practice. But, like I said, I seriously doubt we can prove that. What is teh evidecne for it?
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<BR>You cite the book, _When Women Were Priests_. Just the title of this book makes it sound to me like the author has an agenda, and is not an objective scholar. Who is the author? Who was the publisher? What evidence does the author cite for this?
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<BR>This reminded me of a discussion we had some time back on the Albanach mailing list, when someone asserted that women could be priests and bishops in the early Celtic church. Their evidence for this came from a booke entitled _Celtic Women_ by Peter Ellis. Here are some snippets of that discussion:
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<BR>According to who you read, there were women priests in the Celtic Church,
<BR>women bishops, and even a woman pope once! Of course, I don't know how
<BR>strong any of these claims are. Again, let us look to Ellis, our favourite
<BR>author. ;-) He says there is evidence that they could perform the mass, and
<BR>did. His evidence for this is a letter from three Roman bishops at Tours
<BR>written to two Breton priests between 515-20 AD. The letter says, as he
<BR>quotes it, "You celebrate the divine sacrafice of the Mass with the
<BR>assistance of women to whome you give the name conhospitae. While you
<BR>distribute the Eucharist, they take the chalice and asminister the blood of
<BR>Christ to the people. . . Renounce these abuses....!"
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<BR>A few notes. This letter mentions women *assisting* the priest, not
<BR>performing preisty functions themselves. According to the description, their
<BR>role may be best described as a deacon, or even as the modern role of
<BR>Extra-ordinary Eucharistic Minister (which women can do, by the way). Also
<BR>note, this letter was written demanding them to end these abuses. It in no
<BR>way suggests it was allowed. </FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
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<BR>and in regards to Ellis's book:
<BR>I would caution, however, that Ellis is not a very reliable source.
<BR>He can usually be trusted with regard to specific facts (e.g., if he
<BR>quotes something, that the document quoted does actually say what he
<BR>claims -- though even then there may be some question of translation
<BR>and strategic choices) but his interpretations of those facts leave a
<BR>great deal to be desired. This is a man who concludes that St. Brigid
<BR>must have had a lesbian relationship with a fellow nun based on their
<BR>having shared a bed and that Brigid punished this nun for looking
<BR>appraisingly at a passing young warrior. Women sharing beds is dead
<BR>common -- even _today_ most women think nothing of sharing a bed if
<BR>there is only one available, and the very idea that everyone should
<BR>have their own individual bed has not been universal throughout
<BR>history (and I expect it is still uncommon in some parts of the
<BR>world). And what is so significant about an abbess punishing a nun
<BR>for looking lustfully at a man?!?!? This is exactly what they are
<BR>expected to do -- look after the spiritual welfare of the nuns in
<BR>their care.
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<BR>I've found Ellis' books to be full of such flawed reasoning, so I
<BR>wouldn't trust his claims about Irish history & society any further
<BR>than I can throw him ;-)
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<BR>So, again, I would caution you to take a look at yoru sources. What is their evidence for saying that there were once women priests and bishops? It would have to be extraordinary to challenge the widely accepted belief, not only in Church history but among secular historians as well, that only men were appointed to these positions.
<BR>Aye,
<BR>Eogan
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<BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">Tighearn Eoghan Og mac Labhrainn, OPE, CP
<BR>Sacred Stone Pursuivant, Baronial Bard
<BR>WWW.ALBANACH.ORG
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<BR>1 out of every 4 babies in America dies of CHOICE</FONT></HTML>