[MR] Iron Lance "Issues"
Fauconnoir at aol.com
Fauconnoir at aol.com
Tue Aug 28 16:02:20 PDT 2001
In a message dated 01-08-28 14:44:31 EDT, you write:
<<
Greetings all!
I am James Du Fauconnoir, Kommandant Auf Das Ostexpeditionmacht and
Chief Negotiator of the Iron Lance Mercenary Unit. I was informed by several
sources of our unit being the topic of some discussion on the list. I
felt compelled to subscribe and respond to these posts. I have taken the
liberty to paste all the ones I found into this one and I have responded
to each one individually.
Please feel free to read and comment as you all see fit with your
observations and opinions. I welcome all comments positive and negative.
My wish is to clear up some outstanding issues that some subscribers to
this list obviously have. I say let the discussion begin! My comments
are as follows..................
> Message: 7
> From: "Marci Northrop" <mars2373 at hotmail.com>
> To: <atlantia at atlantia.sca.org>
> Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 18:38:00 -0400
> Subject: [MR] Re:Iron Lance members
>
>
>
> For those of you who may not know, most of Iron Lance is from Trimaris.
> They also acted with honor off field too.
>
> Just out of curiousity do you happen to remember the names of the
> Iron Lance members from Trimaris? Being from Trimaris myself (That's where
> I grew up) I would love to know who from my home is being so well talked
> of.
> [Just a little bit of pride here ; ) ]
>
> Arglywddes Teamhair Wyddeles
> ldyteamhair at yahoo.com
***
Well, thanks Marci. This is not precisely true however. The
Trimeres contingent of IL supplied 8 of our 34 fighters at Pennsic this
year. We are from all over the knowne world and mostly from no one
particular place.
PS - I will forward you the E-mail addys of the Trimerian Kommandants
and they will surely be happy to share the rest of the info with you,
***
Indeed, I became acquainted with them in the Mountain Pass Battle last
week. And judging by the yellow paint on my leg armor, they in fact
became acquainted with me as well.
_____
|_|_| Kevin Maxson (Master Kevin of Thornbury)
| | | Electronic Publications Manager, SCA, Inc.
\|/ kevin at maxson.com http://www.sca.org
***
And I trust you found our unit worthy and honorable opponents. If no,
please feel free to point out anything you feel was less than honorable
or chivalrous. I will address it with all honesty and I welcome your
honest criticisms. Please be as specific as possible, that makes these
things
much easier to sort out.
I look forward to trading paint with you again in the future good sir!
Well done!
Fauconnoir
***
Greetings from Rodrigo Falcone!
I saw the same thing from two of them in the Mountain Pass battle, but
only two of them and it was indeed blatant. We fought in the southern
pass right at the bale. I was not the only Atlantian, or even brother
of St. Aiden who noticed it. It wasn't worth arguing over(less time to
fight the honorable people). Most of them were a pleasure to meet/kill
and we both pressed our issues valiantly.
What is truly sad: there are some very honorable and very worthy
fighters among the group. As a whole, they fight hard and are an
effective unit on the field. They execute their objective with
precision and planning. They follow orders from their commanders. A
couple of them do, however, cheat and lie. This dishonor colors their
overall perception to a less than pleasant shade of doo-doo brown.
It's a simple thing to clean up and easy, really. Pehaps we should
make a lesson of this. For all the good we do, it only takes a couple to
screw it up for everybody.
Falcone
***
Falcone,
Well first, I would like to thank you sincerely and deeply for your general
comments on the unit. Our primary employer used the term "professional".
I like that and it couldn't be more true (I think) . Thank you again of
the words of high praise.
Further, I commend your ability to discern the behavior of 1 or 2
individuals
from the behavior of an entire unit. For this you have my deepest respect
and
have bought much credence and consideration to your observations and
viewpoints.
I assure you that it is my intent to cleanse the overall perception of the
group at least to a screaming yellow! I am very sensitive to the reputation
and honor of this group. If there is a problem, no one more than I wishes to
see it taken care of as swiftly as possible.
However although you are obviously an honorable man, I must take
exception with your use of the terms liar and cheat. These are strong terms
and once again I must challenge anyone accusing any of my troops with these
terms.
The main reason I doubt the cheating accusation is that as I will repeat
over
and over in this missive, our command staff is aware that there is a high
percentage of newbies in the group that are not overly familiar with the
etiquette of the battlefield and are prone to errors in judgment. We were
all watching out troops very closely and saw no blatant evidence of this
in the Mountain pass or any other battle.
I am not so crass as to suggest that no blow landed that may have appeared
to
have been good to the other side that was not acknowledged by any of my
troops, but I am suggesting that if there was an error in judgment, it was
an honest mistake perhaps made by an inexperienced fighter. By and large
I think most of our fighters tend to take shots on the lighter side rather
than
not take them at all, but there surely were exceptions. I know for DAMN sure
we spent a LOT of time walking (running) back and forth to and from the
res point in the Mountain pass!
Liar is a term I cannot abide. Unless you have specific knowledge of an
individual out-and-out lying, I must insist that we must all assume that
we are all telling our interpretation of what we saw as fact and that
there is certainly every possibility that these interpretations may vary
widely.
Lying is something that is by and large not done by those in the SCA, I
think. It is one of the things I love about the society. Gross (and serious
matter such as this, I think we must assume unwillful) exaggeration at almost
every turn, surely (another part of the game that I love and i normally find
quite amusing) but blatent lying is almost unknown.
If you do have evidence of this despicable behavior by one of my troops,
please share it with me immediately and I will make every effort to get
to the root of the problem. Besmirchments such as this cannot be tolerated
by any of my membership and I assure you that they will be treated very
harshly. The honor of the unit is at stake and no one can be permitted to
stain
it brown.
If there are two you can identify or accurately describe, I will do my best
to
identify and confront the individual(s). It is a matter of honor with us,
you see.
We cannot tolerate the type of actions you describe in our membership. I
welcome your help in eliminating the problem.
Another point I respectfully disagree with you upon is the fact that the
time
to have dealt with this was there and then rather than to ignore the issue
on
the spot and cry disparagements now. True, it takes away from playtime and
who wants to deal with this crap when you can be swinging wood!
However, if these things are taken care of on the spot, it can save a lot
of
misunderstandings and hard feelings in the future (and lengthy listserver
posts
as well ;) . Seriously, I feel that if any of us have issues (with each
other or
anyone else) like this in the future, we address it there and then for the
sake of
all concerned and the society as a whole.
Fauconnoir
***
Well put Falcone!
I have a few questions to add and I really do mean
questions because as always I'm the non fighter but I
often hear such grumbling after Pennsic.
When I hear such grumbling, I never hear particular
faces or names just an overall household or group
complained about. What bugs me about such complaints
is that it seems that no one made an effort to find
out WHO in the group was causing problems.
I also wonder if posting such issues to the Merry Rose
is a wise method of complaint about issues like this.
Isn't there a marshal forum for such posts where folks
could actually DO something about issues like this?
I'm 100% certain there's nothing that I'M capable of
doing for you.
And I don't mean to single anybody out. I think
Falcone's posting was necessary to explain that it's
not often a whole group causing trouble but a few
individuals. I also think this is not the only
complaint of this type discussed on the Merry Rose.
(Similar conversations have happened many times in the
past.)
But if people see issues like this on the field, they
always seem to make it to the Merry Rose and never to
the people that could actually help.
Does this conversation belong here or on some other
marshals' list? If so can anyone post complaints
there? If so what is the address?
Lady Rebecca showing her Contrary side a little with
genuine questions not intended to knock anybody.
***
Lady Rebecca,
You bring up several valid and interesting points. However, in this case,
yes. I
feel it was an appropiate forum to bring it up. I have several friends in
Atlantia
and I was made aware of this posting and now I am able to address them
personally. I far prefer this to being berated and besmirched without he
opportunity to articulate our views of the events in question.
I feel this can be a very beneficial forum to discuss these types of issues
as long as we we all keep our facts straight and behave like
gentlepersons, there is no reason we cannot discuss these things like adults.
As long as no one takes the high ground and we are all open to others'
input we can all learn from these things. I do feel that the appropriate time
to deal with these issues is right there and then on the field or at least
immediately after the battles.....involving the marshallate only if
absolutely
necessary.
Fauconnoir
***
>> Wulf Hafdan wrote:
>>
>>> Although I'm not a member of the Iron Lance unit, as a mercenary
>>> myself, I have known them, hired them, and been hired by them over the
>>> past six years. They are not so much a 'House' as you would know it,
>>> but are dedicated as a mercenary unit as attested to by their motto,
>>> "You pay, we slay!"
>>
***
Thanks Wulf!
Couldn't have said it better myself.
F.
***
>
> I faced several fighters bearing shields with their device on it in the
2nd
> Castle battle, where they held one of the towers. I saw blatant refusal
to
> acknowledge clearly good blows and failure to follow the directions of the
> marshalls.
***
Whoa, there Kenna!
Those are some pretty steep charges to which I can only respond that in the
second fort battle (where we did indeed hold the Norse tower) The entire
unit
was confined to the tower proper. Also within said tower was an Atlantian
Earl. Therefore he was within 15 feet of my entire unit the entire battle.
Do you
not think that if there were blatant disregard of blows that he would not
have
said something? Perhaps you would like to discuss this with
him.
BTW - Why were Atlantians fighting on the side of the East/Mid? Shouldn't
you have been fighting for the Allies?
Regarding the marshalls. I don't know how combat works where you come
from, but NOBODY fails to follow the marshalls directions on ANY
battlefield I
have ever been on. Have you ever witnessed a marshall reluctant to stop
combat and remove any contestant who blatantly disregarded their direction? I
certainly have not, nor I condone this activity (disregarding marshals)
within or
without my own unit.
Another point I would like to make is that it may have been easy to mistake
what
you thought was the same person repeatedly not taking blow, in fact have
been a different person entirely! Believe me, at the end of the battle, the
entire
tower floor was covered in dead bodies! We took 2/3 casualties in that
battle.
There were dead all along the walls beneath the crenellations around the
whole tower. We had a shield wall covering the exit, so the dead had no
where to go.
We switch off weapons all the time too. If we get tired or something we
switch
a LOT. For example, Matthias was fighting with his polearm. He lost his
right
arm. Did he leave the field? NO. Nothing in the rules compels him to do so.
He
gave his polearm to another IL fighter and picked up a shield and stuck it
in a
crenellation and completed the battle. Is that cheating? I think not. Now it
is
perfectly possible that his polearm was seen back in combat after his arm
was
taken. Who is to say?
I switched as well. I started off fighting with my trusty polearm and I
switched
to archery after all 5 of my archers were killed. Is that cheating? I don't
think so.
These are only 2 examples of how someone could be easily mistaken when
making determinations about whether or not our unit fights unchivalrously.
Also, all of our uniforms are the same and much of our armor (helmets
especially) are identical. Is it not possible that one of our fighters got
whacked,
took a knee behind a crennel like a good dead fighter and was replaced by
another IL'er who had very similar armor? Can you be absolutely sure that
you
are not mistaken? There were 30 of us in that tower and only about 5 holes
to
fight through. There were a lot of us to fill in the gaps in the ranks.
I think you should be a bit very careful about the accusations you bandy
about with such abandon unless you are prepared to be challenged and asked
to back up your claims with several witnesses and exact descriptions of
individuals and events.
Conversely, I am prepared to accept the possibility that there are 2 sides
to
every story and there may have perhaps been a poor judgment call made by
one or more of my fighters. It is a melee, stuff will happen. Bottom line is
it is the fighter who receives the blow's call, not other observers'. Unless
someone's safety is in question, I believe it generally best policy to give
the
thumpee the benefit of the doubt. Don't you agree?
If this is a serious problem and you can identify this person, I will be
happy to contact them personally, straighten them out and take measures
to see that this does not happen again. I only doubt you because the
officers
within and without our unit were briefed to be aware of this and watch our
troops very carefully to make sure this was not happening. We did not notice
any blatant shrugging of blows or any other acts of unchivarousness as
defined by the rules of chivalrous combat laid down by the SCA.
***
> Judging by the comments of those around me I was not the only
> one who was angered by it.
***
"It" meaning exactly what?
Shrugging of blows? Another point I would like to make. I personally refused
to
take 2 shots in that tower. The first one was a crossbow bolt that hit me in
the
back of the helm. If you read the rules, you will find that arrows do not
kill a
person if it hits them in the back of the head. The person who shot me was
quite undone about that and I do not think I was able to convey properly why
I
did not accept his shot over the din of battle. So sorry, if you're not
dead,
you're not dead.
In another situation, I was arching. a gentle below the tower swung his
polearm up and hit the sill of the crennellation (missing me entirely). He
insisted I
was dead because he came within 10 feet of me. Again, if you read the rules,
you will find that archers are touch-kill. He never touched me though. This
guy
was a bit torqued about that too. SO solly. If you are not dead, you are not
dead.
I think that the new scenario and it's special sets of rules need to be
scrutinized
more closely by the fighters involved. If this were the case, I think a lot
fewer
of these incidents would occur.
***
> It angered me enough that I looked up the device
> in the ordinary to see who it was registered to. After what I had
read
here
> I was suprised to find it was Iron Lance.
***
Well, we are very hard to miss (and therefore very EASY to point at) .
Big-ass
yellow warboards with a black anvil (pointing right) with a yellow Lance
pointing left) within the anvil. Ya, I know not herald-speak, but everyone
will
know what I mean now. VERY visible and hard to mistake.
Now you have discovered who we are. Feel free to discuss your grievances
in detail. I assure you I wish for nothing but to clear the good name of my
Company and explain our side of the story. We are all about having fun, good
will with our fellow warriors and furthering the glory, honor and fame
beloved
Company.
It is not about winning to us . I would rather see our entire unit slain to
the man without taking a single enemy down with usthan to have a single
fighter in our ranks not take their hit. I have seen this on more than one
occasion. I assure you that we are not now, nor were we ever that bad a
fighters to have lost an entire unit without landing a single killing blow.
I have seen men knocked to the ground by spear shots that they have gotten
back up and called light. I have seen men speared into tree tunks bowing
rattan spears like the McDonald's arches who have called it light. Those are
only two examples. I could go on and on.
I know that is no fun. That is not how we play the game. If there were
misunderstandings or inexperienced fighters making bad calls, I assure you it
was not intentional and I will make every effort to root out the
perpetrators. However, I think it is unfair and irresponsible to brand the
entire unit as unchivalrous.
If we have a "problem child" I am eager to identify them and deal with them
harshly. We may be mercenaries, but I feel we have as much if not more
honor
than any other group out there loyalist or otherwise. The honor of our unit
is
everything to us and I do not take challenges to it lightly.
***
> Others may praise them as they will, I found their conduct on the field
> unchivalrous.
>
> Kenna McKenna
> House Schrekendrake
> Shire of Dragon's Lawe
*****
You are certainly entitled to your opinion. However, it is surely impossible
to live up to any and all persons' ideals of chivalry. All I can say is we
take great pains to play by the rules. If members of my unit were acting in
a
manner counter to the rules (in letter or spirit), I sincerely apologize and
urge you to point out exactly whom the offense was committed by and I
assure you I will be the first in line with painful admonitions.... or worse
if
the situation calls for it.
Fauconnoir
***
Falcone wrote (about the behavior of Iron Lance)
<I saw the same thing from two of them in the Mountain Pass battle, but
<only two of them and it was indeed blatant.
This may or may not be relevant. Some of us from Storvik chatted with
the Iron lance folks just before the second Castle battle. One of them
mentioned that they had a LOT of new members this war. Speaking as
someone who just experienced his freshman war, maybe the behavior some
gentles are reporting come from inexperience. not an excuse, of course, but
maybe an explanation.
Just a thought
William of Faleston
(Chris Goodson)
>>
*****
Good point William,
It is true that we have a large percentage of new fighters. This has always
been true for IL however and is no excuse at all for bad conduct on the
battlefield. I am willing to accept the possibility that inexperience or
testosterone poisoning may have gotten the best of one or more of our new
fighters (or maybe even the old hands).
My point is that we (the command staff of IL) were watching for this
specifically and saw no evidence of it, nor did others within our close
proximity. I find it curious that relatively few (of the hundreds we fought
against/with) are so outspoken with their disapproval.
Perhaps this is a good time to point out that the time to deal with these
grievances is either on the spot, or if no satisfaction can be gotten then
and there, immediately after the battle. We are easy to find. If you can't
find the swarm of screaming yellow tabards, a safe bet at locating us is
under the screaming yellow shade pavillion with the black anvil on it.
Example. I myself was involved in another "incident". This was in the now
infamous Mountain Pass battle I had a little "run-in" certain squire mainly
involving my hitting him with great force with my secondary weapon over a
dozen times and him not acknowledging the blow.
Point being, after the battle the squire came over and explained that he
thought I was hitting him with the haft of my polearm and he could not
see what I was hitting him with so he did not take the first several hits. I
apologized for losing my cool and invited him down to our camp to have a
beer as a peace offering.
We shook hands and all was well. I still think I was right and I think you
are supposed to fall down dead if you get hit with 1 (let alone 7 or 8 or
10)
good shots and determine if it was a non-lethal blow later, but I surely
understand that it was a melee and stuff happens sometimes. Who was
right or wrong was irrelevant. How we resolved it was the important thing, I
think.
We were fighting all-out for our virtual lives out here and stuff happens. I
was not mad at all after we talked. He dealt with it honorably, the way
it is supposed to be done. I feel if this method was employed more often, we
would see far less disgruntled fighters out there and certainly less hard
feelings overall.
I guess my other point is there are 2 sides to all of these scenarios. I do
not
think it is fair to just take what you think you saw and interpret it and
then start
pointing fingers and challenging ones honor or worse accuse people of
blatently breaking the rules or lying about it. Why Can't we just all play
nice?
Besides, we LOST that damned mountain pass, so what is the big problem?
It was the toughest fighting I have ever been a part of. I enjoyed it
thoroughly.
My only regrets are that I am not in good enough condition to fight like
that for
long periods of time, the previously discussed squire incident and the hard
feelings and unflattering comments i have witnessed over this listserver.
That was a great battle guys (and gals) and it came right down to the very
end. We fought tough, but we lost. Hey, we will try again next year, eh? I
look forward to it. You were all worthy and honorable opponents. I welcome
the opportunity to fight such souls as yourselves again in the near future.
Say, Gulf Wars, maybe?
Your comrade-in-arms,
Lord James Gaston Chevalier Du Fauconnoir
Kommandant Auf Das Ostexpeditionmacht,
Chief Negotiator
Iron Lance Mercenary Unit >>
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