[MR] Iron Lance "Issues"

[Jeff Franklin]

 Greetings all!
 
 I am James Du Fauconnoir, Kommandant Auf Das Ostexpeditionmacht and
 Chief  Negotiator of the Iron Lance Mercenary Unit. I was informed by
several
 sources of our unit being the topic of some discussion on the list. I
 felt compelled to subscribe and respond to these posts. I have taken
the
 liberty to paste all the ones I found into this one and I have
responded
 to each one individually.
 
 Please feel free to read and comment as you all see fit with your
 observations and opinions. I welcome all comments positive and
negative.
 My wish is to clear up some outstanding issues that some subscribers to
 this list obviously have. I say let the discussion begin! My comments
 are as follows..................
 
 
  > Message: 7
  > From: "Marci Northrop" <mars2373 at hotmail.com>
  > To: <atlantia at atlantia.sca.org>
  > Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 18:38:00 -0400
  > Subject: [MR] Re:Iron Lance members
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > For those of you who may not know, most of Iron Lance is from
Trimaris.
  > They also acted with honor off field too.
  > 
  >  Just out of curiousity do you happen to remember the names of the
  > Iron Lance members from Trimaris? Being from Trimaris myself (That's
where
  > I grew up) I would love to know who from my home is being so well
talked  
 
  > of. 
  > [Just a little bit of pride here ; ) ]
  > 
  > Arglywddes Teamhair Wyddeles
  > ldyteamhair at yahoo.com
  
  ***
  
  Well, thanks Marci. This is not precisely true however. The
  Trimeres contingent of IL supplied 8 of our 34 fighters at Pennsic
this
  year. We are from all over the knowne world and mostly from no one 
  particular place. 
 
  PS - I will forward you the E-mail addys of the Trimerian Kommandants
  and  they will surely be happy to share the rest of the info with you,
  ***
  
  Indeed, I became acquainted with them in the Mountain Pass Battle last
  week.  And judging by the yellow paint on my leg armor, they in fact
  became acquainted with me as well.
 
  _____
  |_|_|  Kevin Maxson   (Master Kevin of Thornbury)
  | | |  Electronic Publications Manager, SCA, Inc.
   \|/   kevin at maxson.com       http://www.sca.org
  
  ***
  
  And I trust you found our unit worthy and honorable opponents. If no,
  please feel free to point out anything you feel was less than
honorable
  or chivalrous. I will address it with all honesty and I welcome your
  honest  criticisms. Please be as specific as possible, that makes
these 
things   
  much easier to sort out.
  
  I  look forward to trading paint with you again in the future good
sir! 
Well done!
  
  Fauconnoir
  ***
  
  
  Greetings from Rodrigo Falcone!
  
  I saw the same thing from two of them in the Mountain Pass battle, but 
  only two of them and it was indeed blatant.  We fought in the southern 
  pass right at the bale.  I was not the only Atlantian, or even brother 
  of St. Aiden who noticed it.  It wasn't worth arguing over(less time
to 
  fight the honorable people).  Most of them were a pleasure to
meet/kill 
  and we both pressed our issues valiantly.
  
  What is truly sad: there are some very honorable and very worthy 
  fighters among the group.  As a whole, they fight hard and are an 
  effective unit on the field.  They execute their objective with 
  precision and planning.  They follow orders from their commanders.  A 
  couple of them do, however, cheat and lie.  This dishonor colors their 
  overall perception to a less than pleasant shade of doo-doo brown.
  
  It's a simple thing to clean up and easy, really.  Pehaps we should
  make a lesson of this.  For all the good we do, it only takes a couple
to 
  screw it up for everybody.
  
  Falcone
  
 ***
 
 Falcone,
 
 Well first, I would like to thank you sincerely and deeply for your
general 
 comments on the unit. Our primary employer used the term
"professional".
 I  like that and it couldn't be more true (I think) . Thank you again
of
 the words of high praise.
 
 Further, I commend your ability to discern the behavior of 1 or 2 
individuals 
 from the behavior of an entire unit. For this you have my deepest
respect 
and 
 have bought much credence and consideration to your observations and 
 viewpoints. 
 
 I assure you that it is my intent to cleanse the overall perception of
the 
 group at least to a screaming yellow! I am very sensitive to the
reputation 
 and honor of this group. If there is a problem, no one more than I
wishes to 
 see it taken care of as swiftly as possible. 
 
 However although you are obviously an honorable man, I must take
 exception with your use of the terms liar and cheat. These are strong
terms 
 and once again I must challenge anyone accusing any of my troops with
these
 terms. 
 
 The main reason I doubt the cheating accusation is that as I will
repeat 
over 
 and over in this missive, our command staff is aware that there is a
high 
 percentage of newbies in the group that are not overly familiar with
the 
 etiquette of the battlefield and are prone to errors in judgment. We
were 
 all watching out troops very closely and saw no blatant evidence of
this
 in the Mountain pass or any other battle. 
 
 I am not so crass as to suggest that no blow landed that may have
appeared 
to 
 have been good to the other side that was not acknowledged by any of my 
 troops, but I am suggesting that if there was an error in judgment, it
was 
 an honest mistake perhaps made by an inexperienced fighter. By and
large
 I think most of our fighters tend to take shots on the lighter side
rather 
than 
 not take them at all, but there surely were exceptions. I know for DAMN
sure 
 we spent a LOT of time walking (running) back and forth to and from the
 res point in the Mountain pass!
 
 Liar is a term I cannot abide. Unless you have specific knowledge of an 
 individual out-and-out lying, I must insist that we must all assume
that
 we are all telling our interpretation of what we saw as fact and that
 there is  certainly every possibility that these interpretations may
vary 
widely. 
 
 Lying is something that is by and large not done by those in the SCA, I 
think. It is one of the things I love about the society. Gross (and
serious 
matter such as this, I think we must assume unwillful) exaggeration at
almost 
every turn, surely (another part of the game that I love and i normally
find 
quite amusing) but blatant lying is almost unknown.
 
 If you do have evidence of this despicable behavior by one of my
troops, 
 please share it with me immediately and I will make every effort to get
 to  the root of the problem. Besmirchments such as this cannot be
tolerated
 by  any of my membership and I assure you that they will be treated
very
 harshly.  The honor of the unit is at stake and no one can be permitted
to 
stain
 it brown.
 
 If there are two you can identify or accurately describe, I will do my
best 
to  
 identify and confront the individual(s). It is a matter of honor with
us,  
you see.  
 We cannot tolerate the type of actions you describe in our  membership.
I   
 welcome your help in eliminating the problem.
 
 Another point I respectfully disagree with you upon is the fact that
the 
time 
 to have dealt with this was there and then rather than to ignore the
issue 
on 
 the spot  and cry disparagements now. True, it takes away from playtime
and 
 who wants to deal with this crap when you can be swinging wood!
 
  However, if these things are taken care of on the spot, it can save a
lot 
of 
 misunderstandings and hard feelings in the future (and lengthy
listserver 
posts   
 as well ;) . Seriously, I feel that if any of us have issues (with each 
other or  
 anyone else) like this in the future, we address it there and then for
the 
sake of 
 all concerned and the society as a whole.

 
 Fauconnoir
 
 ***
  
  Well put Falcone!  
  
  I have a few questions to add and I really do mean
  questions because as always I'm the non fighter but I
  often hear such grumbling after Pennsic.  
  
  When I hear such grumbling, I never hear particular
  faces or names just an overall household or group
  complained about.  What bugs me about such complaints
  is that it seems that no one made an effort to find
  out WHO in the group was causing problems.
  
  I also wonder if posting such issues to the Merry Rose
  is a wise method of complaint about issues like this. 
  Isn't there a marshal forum for such posts where folks
  could actually DO something about issues like this? 
  I'm 100% certain there's nothing that I'M capable of
  doing for you.
  
  And I don't mean to single anybody out.  I think
  Falcone's posting was necessary to explain that it's
  not often a whole group causing trouble but a few
  individuals.  I also think this is not the only
  complaint of this type discussed on the Merry Rose. 
  (Similar conversations have happened many times in the
  past.)
  
  But if people see issues like this on the field, they
  always seem to make it to the Merry Rose and never to
  the people that could actually help.
  
  Does this conversation belong here or on some other
  marshals' list?  If so can anyone post complaints
  there?  If so what is the address?
  
  
  
  Lady Rebecca showing her Contrary side a little with
  genuine questions not intended to knock anybody.
  
  
 ***
 
 Lady Rebecca,
 
 You bring up several valid and interesting points. However, in this
case,  
yes. I   
 feel it was an appropriate forum to bring it up. I have several friends
in  
Atlantia 
 and I was made aware of this posting and now I am able to address 
them  
 personally. I far prefer this to being berated and besmirched without
he 
 opportunity to articulate our views of the events in question.
 
 I feel this can be a very beneficial forum to discuss these types of
issues 
 as long as we we all keep our facts straight and behave like
 gentlepersons, there is no reason we cannot discuss these things like
adults.
 
 As long as no one takes the high ground and we are all open to others'
 input we can all learn from these things. I do feel that the
appropriate time
 to deal with these issues is right there and then on the field or at
least 
 immediately after the battles.....involving the marshallate only if  
absolutely  
 necessary.
 
 Fauconnoir
 ***
  
  >> Wulf Hafdan wrote:
  >> 
  >>> Although I'm not a member of the Iron Lance unit, as a mercenary
  >>> myself, I have known them, hired them, and been hired by them over
the
  >>> past six years.  They are not so much a 'House' as you would know
it,
  >>> but are dedicated as a mercenary unit as attested to by their
motto,
  >>> "You pay, we slay!"
  >> 
 
 ***
 Thanks Wulf!
 
 Couldn't have said it better myself.
 
 F.
 ***
 
  > 
  > I faced several fighters bearing shields with their device on it in
the 
2nd
  > Castle battle, where they held one of the towers.  I saw blatant
refusal 
to
  > acknowledge clearly good blows and failure to follow the directions
of the
  > marshal's.  
 
 ***
 
 Whoa, there Kenna!
 
 Those are some pretty steep charges to which I can only respond that in
the 
 second fort battle (where we did indeed hold the Norse tower) The
entire 
unit 
 was confined to the tower proper. Also within said tower was an
Atlantian 
 Earl.  Therefore he was within 15 feet of my entire unit the entire
battle.  
Do you  
 not think that if there were blatant disregard of blows that he would 
not 
have   
 said something? Perhaps you would like to discuss this with
 him.
 
 BTW - Why were Atlantians fighting on the side of the East/Mid?
Shouldn't
 you have been fighting for the Allies?
 
 Regarding the marshal's. I don't know how combat works where you come
 from,  but NOBODY fails to follow the marshal's directions on ANY 
battlefield I
 have  ever been on.  Have you ever witnessed a marshall reluctant to
stop
 combat and remove any contestant who blatantly disregarded their
direction? I
 certainly have not, nor I condone this activity (disregarding
marshals)  
within or  
 without my own unit. 
 
 Another point I would like to make is that it may have been easy to
mistake 
what  
 you thought was the same person repeatedly not taking blow, in fact
have  
 been a different person entirely! Believe me, at the end of the battle,
the 
entire 
 tower floor was covered in dead bodies! We took 2/3 casualties in that 
battle. 
 There were dead all along the walls beneath the crenellations around
the 
 whole tower. We had a shield wall covering the exit, so the dead had
no  
 where to go.
 
 We switch off weapons all the time too. If we get tired or something we 
switch  
 a LOT. For example, Matthias was fighting with his polearm. He lost his 
right  
 arm. Did he leave the field? NO. Nothing in the rules compels him to do
so. 
He 
 gave his polearm to another IL fighter and picked up a shield and stuck
it 
in a 
 crenellation and completed the battle. Is that cheating? I think not.
Now it 
is   
 perfectly possible that his polearm was seen back in combat after his
arm 
was  
 taken. Who is to say?
 
 I switched as well. I started off fighting with my trusty polearm and I 
switched  
 to archery after all 5 of my archers were killed. Is that cheating? I
don't 
think so.  
 These are only 2 examples of how someone could be easily mistaken when 
 making determinations about whether or not our unit fights
unchivalrously.
 
 Also, all of our uniforms are the same and much of our armor (helmets 
 especially) are identical. Is it not possible that one of our fighters
got 
whacked,  
 took a knee behind a crennel like a good dead fighter and was replaced
by 
 another IL'er who had very similar armor? Can you be absolutely sure
that 
you  
 are not mistaken? There were 30 of us in that tower and only about 5
holes 
to 
 fight through. There were a lot of us to fill in the gaps in the ranks.
 
 I think you should be a bit very careful about the accusations you
bandy
 about with such abandon unless you are prepared to be challenged and
asked 
 to back up your claims with several witnesses and exact descriptions of
 individuals and events.
 
 Conversely, I am prepared to accept the possibility that there are 2
sides 
to 
 every story and there may have perhaps been a poor judgment call made
by
 one or more of my fighters. It is a melee, stuff will happen. Bottom
line is
 it is the fighter who receives the blow's call, not other observers'.
Unless 
 someone's safety is in question, I believe it generally best policy to
give 
the 
 thumpee the benefit of the doubt. Don't you agree?
 
 If this is a serious problem and you can identify this person, I will
be 
 happy to contact them personally, straighten them out and take measures
 to see that this does not happen again. I only doubt you because the 
officers 
 within and without our unit were briefed to be aware of this and watch
our 
 troops very carefully to make sure this was not happening. We did not
notice 
 any blatant shrugging of blows or any other acts of unchivarousness as
 defined by the rules of chivalrous combat laid down by the SCA.
 
 ***
 
  > Judging by the comments of those around me I was not the only
  > one who was angered by it.
 
 ***
 
 "It" meaning exactly what?
 
 Shrugging of blows? Another point I would like to make. I personally
refused 
to 
 take 2 shots in that tower. The first one was a crossbow bolt that hit
me in 
the 
 back of the helm. If you read the rules, you will find that arrows do
not 
kill a 
 person if it hits them in the back of the head. The person who shot me
was 
 quite undone about that and I do not think I was able to convey
properly why 
I 
 did not accept his shot over the din of battle. So sorry, if you're not 
dead, 
 you're not dead. 
 
 In another situation, I was arching. a gentle below the tower swung his 
 polearm up and hit the sill of the crenellation (missing me entirely).
He 
insisted I 
 was dead because he came within 10 feet of me. Again, if you read the
rules, 
 you will find that archers are touch-kill. He never touched me though.
This 
guy 
 was a bit torqued about that too. SO solly. If you are not dead, you
are not 
 dead.
 
 I think that the new scenario and it's special sets of rules need to be 
scrutinized 
 more closely by the fighters involved. If this were the case, I think a
lot 
fewer 
 of these incidents would occur.
 
 ***
 
  > It angered me enough that I looked up the device
  > in the ordinary to see who it was registered to.  After what I had
 read 
 here
  > I was suprised to find it was Iron Lance.
 
 ***
 
 Well, we are very hard to miss (and therefore very EASY to point at) . 
Big-ass 
 yellow warboards with a black anvil (pointing right) with a yellow
Lance 
 pointing left) within the anvil. Ya, I know not herald-speak, but
everyone 
will 
 know what I mean now. VERY visible and hard to mistake.
 
 Now you have discovered who we are. Feel free to discuss your
grievances
 in detail. I assure you I wish for nothing but to clear the good name
of my
 Company and explain our side of the story. We are all about having fun,
good 
 will with our fellow warriors and furthering the glory, honor and fame 
beloved 
 Company. 
 
 It is not about winning to us . I would rather see our entire unit
slain to 
 the man without taking a single enemy down with us than to have a
single 
 fighter in our ranks not take their hit. I have seen this on more than
one   
 occasion. I assure you that we are not now, nor were we ever that bad a 
fighters to have lost an entire unit without landing a single killing
blow. 

I have seen men knocked to the ground by spear shots that they have
gotten 
back up and called light. I have seen men speared into tree tunics
bowing 
rattan spears like the McDonald's arches who have called it light. Those
are 
only two examples. I could go on and on. 

I know that is no fun. That is not how we play the game. If there were 
misunderstandings or inexperienced fighters making bad calls, I assure
you it 
was not intentional and I will make every effort to root out the 
perpetrators. However, I think it is unfair and irresponsible to brand
the 
entire unit as unchivalrous.

 If we have a "problem child" I am eager to identify them  and deal with
them 
 
 harshly. We may be mercenaries, but I feel we have as much  if not more 
honor 
 than any other group out there loyalist or otherwise. The  honor of our
unit 
is 
 everything to us and I do not take challenges to it  lightly. 
 ***
 
  > Others may praise them as they will, I found their conduct on the
field
  > unchivalrous.
  > 
  > Kenna McKenna
  > House Schrekendrake
  > Shire of Dragon's Lawe
 
 *****
 
 You are certainly entitled to your opinion. However, it is surely
impossible 
 to live up to any and all persons' ideals of chivalry. All I can say is
we 
 take great pains to play by the rules. If members of my unit were
acting in 
a 
 manner counter to the rules (in letter or spirit), I sincerely
apologize and 
 urge you to point out exactly whom the offense was committed by and I
 assure you I will be the first in line with painful admonitions.... or
worse 
if
 the  situation calls for it.

Fauconnoir
 ***
  
  Falcone wrote (about the behavior of Iron Lance)
  
  <I saw the same thing from two of them in the Mountain Pass battle,
but
  <only two of them and it was indeed blatant.
  
  This may or may not be relevant. Some of us from Storvik chatted with
  the Iron lance folks just before the second Castle battle. One of them
  mentioned that they had a LOT of new members this war. Speaking as 
 someone who just experienced his freshman war, maybe the behavior some 
 gentles are reporting come from inexperience. not an excuse, of course,
but 
 maybe an explanation.
  
  Just a thought
  William of Faleston
  (Chris Goodson)
   >>
 
 *****
 
 Good point William,
 
 It is true that we have a large percentage of new fighters. This has
always 
 been true for IL however and is no excuse at all for bad conduct on the 
 battlefield. I am willing to accept the possibility that inexperience
or 
 testosterone poisoning may have gotten the best of one or more of our
new 
 fighters (or maybe even the old hands). 

 My point is that we (the command staff of IL) were watching for this  
 specifically and saw no evidence of it, nor did others within our
close  
 proximity. I find it curious that relatively few (of the hundreds we
fought 
 against/with) are so outspoken with their disapproval.
 
 Perhaps this is a good time to point out that the time to deal with
these 
 grievances is either on the spot, or if no satisfaction can be gotten
then 
 and there, immediately after the battle. We are easy to find. If you
can't 
 find the swarm of screaming yellow tabards, a safe bet at locating us
is 
 under the screaming yellow shade pavilion with the black anvil on it. 
 
 Example. I myself was involved in another "incident". This was in the
now  
 infamous Mountain Pass battle I had a little "run-in" certain squire
mainly 
involving my hitting him with great force with my secondary weapon over
a 
dozen times and him not acknowledging the blow.
 
 Point being, after the battle the squire came over and explained that
he 
 thought I was hitting him with the haft of my polearm and he could not
 see what I was hitting him with so he did not take the first several
hits. I 
 apologized for losing my cool and invited him down to our camp to have
a
 beer as a peace offering. 
 
 We shook hands and all was well. I still think I was right and I think
you 
 are supposed to fall down dead if you get hit with 1 (let alone 7 or 8
or 
10) 
 good shots and determine if it was a non-lethal blow later, but I
surely 
 understand that it was a melee and stuff happens sometimes. Who was
 right or wrong was irrelevant. How we resolved it was the important
thing, I
 think.
 
 We were fighting all-out for our virtual lives out here and stuff
happens. I 
 was not mad at all after we talked. He dealt with it honorably, the way
 it is supposed to be done. I feel if this method was employed more
often, we 
 would see far less disgruntled fighters out there and certainly less
hard 
 feelings overall.
 
 I guess my other point is there are 2 sides to all of these scenarios.
I do 
not 
 think it is fair to just take what you think you saw and interpret it
and 
then start 
 pointing fingers and challenging ones honor or worse accuse people of 
 blatantly breaking the rules or lying about it. Why Can't we just all
play 
nice? 
 
 Besides, we LOST that damned mountain pass, so what is the big problem?
 It  was the toughest fighting I have ever been a part of. I enjoyed it 
thoroughly. 
 My only regrets are that I am not in good enough condition to fight
like 
that for 
 long periods of time, the previously discussed squire incident and the
hard 
 feelings and unflattering comments i have witnessed over this
listserver.
 
 That was a great battle guys (and gals)  and it came right down to the
very 
 end. We fought tough, but we lost. Hey, we will try again next year,
eh? I 
 look forward to it. You were all worthy and honorable opponents. I
welcome 
 the opportunity to fight such souls as yourselves again in the near
future.
 
Say, Gulf Wars, maybe?

 Your comrade-in-arms,
 
 Lord James Gaston Chevalier Du Fauconnoir
 Kommandant Auf Das Ostexpeditionmacht,
 Chief Negotiator
 Iron Lance Mercenary Unit >>