[Archers] Re: Draft of Archery Rules

[Lawrence Castell]

>>> <Theodore.Shertzer at allfirst.com> 04/30/02 09:03AM >>>


Ted - I have no problem answering your comments and questions 'as a MIT'. but
remember 99% of us out there in the marshal status are not MIT's. With that, we
are supposed to be knowledgeable enough to be able to answer most of their
questions. We are also their guide to conducting correct shooting and marshaling
habits. That goes the same for the more experienced marshals helping the less
experienced. Even though I am in the position that I am in as KAM I still rely
on the more experienced marshals in this kingdom for guidance. That goes for on
the field, off the field, and answering these types of email

Ignacio -  I'm glad to hear that 99% of us in the Marshal status are not MIT's
and are supposed to be knowledgeable enough to be able to answer questions. My
point however, was to obtain explanations that were clear and explained why this
rule or regulation was put in place (beyond common sense), accepted by all, and
would be uttered the same by all Marshals throughout the Kingdom. As you saw by
my intial comments, and by your reply and a few replies by others who have
voiced some opinion that we are all not in agreement on why, or what these rules
mean or entail.

Ted - great. And as you can tell from another email, I expect a lot more comments then just from the three.

In section

2.3.2 Training

The bullet:

        Maintain or acquire an average on the Atlantian Royal Round list

  Why would that be necessary ??  Suppose the Marshal/MIT/archer shoots only
the Winter and novelty shoots. We all know that the skill set on a Royal
Round Range may not apply 100% to the Winter or Novelty type shooting..
Having shot or required to shoot three Royal Rounds a year doesn't appear to
me to actually enhance one's ability to be a Marshal who could run a Royal
Round Range..  Knowing the rules and safety items would appear to me to be
more important.

Ted - Novelty shoots are for fun. The Winter Series and the IKAC are the Known
World 'scoreboard' for archer rankings. The Royal Rounds (RR) are our kingdoms
'scoreboard' of archer rankings. Sure you need to be able to do marshaling for
the other things (winter, IKAC), but within our kingdom we promote the RR's
first. You will always here me say do the RR's then finish it up with an IKAC.
In the winter, do the Winter series if you are not able to do the RR's. And with
that promotion, ALL marshals need to be able to properly conduct/marshal the
RR's for their event or practice. Doing this they also become experienced (I
would hope) in the rules and safety issues. The experienced marshals are
knowledgeable (or should be) in this area. Section 2.3.2 is covering the
training of new marshals. I would make the 'assumption' (that is only an ass u m
ption) that most archers that become MIT's are familiar with RR's but  I would
never make the commitment that is a fact. So a new MIT s!
hould maintain their RR score if they already have one. If they do not then at
an appropriate event or practice they should acquire at least the minimum to get
an average. This will ensure, across the kingdom, that MIT's know how to
conduct, score, and marshal the one 'scoreboard' the kingdom has for ranking its
archers. The new archers are still learning and want to learn. Its the archers
that have been around a long time that get the attitude that 'Oh well, I been
there and done it all so why should I have to keep up with it'. All we are after
is to ensure good safe habits and marshaling techniques throughout all the
marshals in the kingdom.

Ignacio - I still have a problem with the requirement to maintain a RR average.
Knowing the rules and how to run RR's or anything else is the proper point here.
I'll say again. Since, maintaining or acquiring  an average on the Atlantian
Royal Round List requires an archer to shoot 3 scores over a 1 year time frame.
We all know, that this can be done at one scheduled practice. Thus in an hour or
less, the requirement is met. The Marshal never shoots another RR until next
year at the same time. So how does this yearly shooting experience make them a
better Marshal above one who may run RR's weekly or at there local events but
does not shoot themselves, for whatever reason and thus does not maintain a RR
average. Yes, experience does improve one, but knowledge can get you just as far
, and yes knowledge and experience may be the best solution. I'm not saying that
a Marshal should never have to shoot a RR, I just can not see the requirement to
have to maintain an RR average to keep the authority to be a Marshal.

Ted - you keep forgetting that this is a MIT requirement and not an marshal maintenance issue. But I will put your vote in with the rest of the responses.

In section

3.1.2 Forbidden Equipment and Techniques

        Hand straps - strap that holds the hand to the bow

I don't understand this one. How does a device that keeps the bow safely
attached to an archer be forbidden. I've seen several SCA archers who should
or would benefit from the use of one. It would have prevented them from
dropping their bow when they released. Especially when a proper grip on a
bow is a loose grip..

Ted - Sure it is best to have a loose grip. But we also say enough of a grip to
hold onto the bow. A no grip is a drop the bow grip. A dropped bow is also a
safety hazard. (Which way will the bow go, will the archer immediately try to
pick the bow up even if it is in front of the line?) We as marshals should be
guiding and training the archers that are less experienced in the proper
handling of equipment on the line. Archers should be able to properly use their
equipment without the use of a hand strap. If they need it because the bow is
too heavy for them then that is not the bow that they should be using. Hand
straps are typically used to stabilize the bow during shooting and not to
prevent dropping the bow. This gives an unfair advantage to the other archers
around them, as with other item within this list. But keep in mind that there is
an exception to all the rules. (Don't make exceptions just  because the person
is a friend or you personally do not like the rule.) Exam!
ple in this case - a person that has an obvious physical handicap want s to
shoot and we have someone (marshal) that can work with them one on one and they
need the hand strap to hold onto the bow. Then it is the decision of the Marshal
In Charge of the event or practice to allow the archer to use the hand strap.

Ignacio - I'm sorry, but I can not agree on this one. I have worn a strap myself
at some practices, and I'm afraid that I and those shooting with me could not
see how this gave me any advantage. As for the bow being too heavy, the bow I
used was a 35# and weighs about 1/3 the weight of the 45# bow I am currently
using without a strap.  It is purely a safety device that I see no reason to ban
from any competitions or practices that I may run.

Ted - will put your vote in with the rest of them.

        Uncovered holes in the handle of some types of recurve and take-down
bows

I assume this applies to covering up the bow with tape etc.. so that it
doesn't look so modern. My problem with this is wouldn't it make it harder
for me as young MIT to actually inspect the bow when the tape has covered
areas I can not see..

Ted - You are correct, as far as you went. Most take down bows will have the
holes in the non flexing middle section of the bow. The tape would not cover the
limbs or the connecting screw/nut areas. In most cases during a marshals
inspection of this type of bow the bow will usually turn up untaped. At which
time we will ask for this area to be taped. But we also tell the MIT that there
are bows out there that have a special type of tape or leather that covers the
complete bow. We have to inspect the bow to the best of our ability and when we
cannot see the complete base bow we make our best judgment. We do not reject the
bow just because we cannot see every inch of the 'base' bow.

Ignacio - Ok..


        Overhead draw (raising the bow high over the head pointing upward
and drawing it while lowering it         towards the target)

I guess this one needs clarification to me.  How high is high ??.  I've seen
many archers raise their bow and lower as they pulled down. Infact History
tells us that that  was the perferred method of many longbowmen. And if the
range is setup appropriately, then an actual release down range should not
be more than an embarrassment to the archer at the time, followed up with
some possible hints or advise to prevent the issue from occurring again. If
we are raising beyond 45 degrees and the archer is holding it at that height
until they are fully drawn or almost drawn before lowering, then  I see a
potential problem and should be addressed.

Ted - Yes the key word here is 'high'. I also know many archers that pull the
bow slightly above the target and lower to the point of release. Typically no
problem. Most of us that have gone to a number of events know that the archery
safety zone is not always optimum. Sure we set up a safe distance behind the
targets for normal missed arrows at the targets. But it is very hard to ensure a
clout distance behind the targets for slipped releases at a 30 to 50 degree
angle above the horizon. Example - the last event that we went to. If anyone had
released at a high angle the house in the background could very well have holes
in it. And then again we have been to a lot of events that a release at a high
angle would only mean that the 'arrow trolls' have taken their due reward. But,
like you say, even then the archer should be advised of the possible problems.
And if the archer continues with the technique they should be asked to stop
shooting (do it nicely). I know I would not a!
llow it at any event I am MIC'ing for.

Another point here is that shouldn't the crossbow fall in this area. Not
that we raise a crossbow over our heads and then lower it. But to the fact
that many crossbowmen sit.  They cock the bow, place it against their leg or
knee, where it can be pointing at an angle greater than 45 degrees and
normally not straight ahead (I guess they may be afraid of shooting
themselves in the foot), but at a slight angle, while they then place the
bolt on it before raising it off the knee or leg and placing it in the
proper position. With the different types of triggering mechanisms, many
require a little bit of pressure to cause a discharge.  Not very many
crossbowmen can cock the bow while kneeling, mainly here requires that they
do not load the bolt until they are in the kneeling position.  I'm not
saying that standing is the only way to shoot, because many crossbowmen do
not load the bolt until they are upright (makes sense to me), but many do
not hold it pointing down or straight ahead.  So, as a young MIT in
training, when do I call a safety condition on a crossbowmen and tell them
they are using a forbidden technique and must change it or they may not be
able to shoot on this range or event?

Ted - basically the same explanation as above. I have seen archers that use the
crossbow standing up raise the crossbow at a 45% angle above the horizon with
their fingers on the trigger and lower to the target. At any event that I am
marshaling for I will not allow this. It does not make any difference whether
the arrow or the bolt is released at a 45% angle above the horizon - you still
have a safety factor. And remember, do not rely on the 30 yards of woods beyond
the targets to stop the flight of the bolt or arrow. If there is houses or
activity beyond the trees it needs to be factored into the safety equation. Also
keep in mind that when an archer is sitting down and putting the bolt into the
crossbow the crossbow might be at a slightly higher angle then when they are
aiming. But is it pointed that much higher then the target? This is a call that
has to be made by the line marshal.

Ignacio - OK..


        sight markings of any kind on the string

I really don't understand this one as a new MIT.  First if I draw back to to
an anchor point that touches my lips, cheek or ear, I can't even see how I
could see amy markings on the string. Are we saying that these are different
knocking points so that an archer always holds their bow at the same angle
while the angle of the arrow changes?? If so as a new MIT how or rather what
do I tell or explain to the archer why they can't use this method.

Ted - If you have a black string and four inches above the nock is a white
string tied in place, this is a sight marking and you WILL be able to see it.
The same concept of a peep hole. Except you do not look through it. So the same
rule as not using a peep hole applies to this. Sight marking on the bow itself
are used, especially for the Interkingdom contests.

Ignacio - OK.. I guess I'm not coordinated enough to be able to perform that
type of sighting myself. No problem with the ruling, just wanted it clarified.

 In section:

2.1.4 Activity


        All warranted marshals are expected to exhibit a minimum level of
marshalling activity. Marshals that         report little or no marshalling
activity for a prolonged period of time will have their warrants revoked

What is all this about??  Once I become a marshal, I may not actually run an
event, practice, etc. So, how is my activity as a Warranted Marshal to be
reported?? And what is a prolonged period?  The rules and regulations do not
change that often. When were the last time the rules for running the Royal
Rounds or IKAC been changed? So once an individual has been warranted, their
activity as a marshal should only be questioned and pulled, if they are
called  upon to run. monitor or assist, and it is clearly shown that they
can not perform the duties.

Ted - Marshals are not only expected to run events or practices. To my
understanding marshals are out there to assist each other. Helping set up, run,
and tear down at an event is activity that I expect to be reported in the event
report that I should get for EVERY event. Quarterly reports should also include
marshals that have run or assisted at the local groups practices. If a marshal
does not run, assist, or teach at events or practices - why are they marshals?
We do not give out the responsibility so that the person can have the name. And
I will probably be very lenient on the time frame. In fact I will probably not
even notice the inactivity until their marshal training becomes overdue for an
extended period of time. And then they will be contacted individually first.

Ignacio - I still have a problem with this activity issue being able to revoke
the warrant. What type of reporting system is in place that all Marshals can
report what they have done over this prolonged period of time. You say the Event
report and Quarterly reports should show this.  I personally, have run events
since becoming a marshal. But I have also travelled in and out of the Kingdom
attending events as many of us have. At these events, I may or may not have
assisted the MIC's in their activities, depending on the size and number of
marshals present. However, I could almost wager a small fortune (and I only bet
on a sure thing, and I haven't found that yet) that you probably will not fine
my name or that of other marshals listed in every event report who were not
connected directly to the group that ran the event.
For example, I have attended 7 events that had archery so far this season. How
many of those event reports stated that I assisted in the setup, take down,
training, and monitoring of the event. And as far as practices go, I can almost
say that every marshal that comes to either of our two scheduled practices
always assists in one manner or another, but I have a hard time believing that
they are always mentioned by name in the Quarterly reports. No fault of the
Archery Marshal submitting the report, its a given that they help.


        Persons applying for warranting must have a current average on the
Atlantian Royal Round list. Ensuring         the working knowledge of the
rules and means of monitoring the Atlantian archery ranking system. This is
the only instance where a Royal Round average is required

I've addressed this issue earlier. I do not see why this requirement is
necessary. Having an average, doesn't assure that one has a working
knowledge etc.. Only that they shot 3 rounds...

Ted - also as addressed earlier. Maybe I am wrong, but I have always thought
that doing something becomes a working knowledge of doing that item (OJT - On
the Job Training). Shooting three RR's means learning to shoot three RR's.
Recording the RR's is the display that that training was accomplished.

Ignacio - Yes, as I said earlier also, experience is a good training device. But
having to maintain a  minimum of three scores in a year does not make one an
expert in the rules or necessarily have the ability to run RR's.

Ted - Does it not say 'persons applying for a warrent', does that say that you have to maintian a minimum of three scores in a year?

In Section:

2.2.1 Cancellation

        The last marshal class attended was more than two years in the past

Since the rules do not change that often. I'm curious why I would lose my
marshalling ability, just because I was unable to attend a Class. If I am
active either as a marshal (MIC) or as an archer participating at events
during that two year period, why should I be penalized, especially if I am
unable to attend the University or an event that a class may be given at.
I've seen individuals who have been in the SCA for many years and have
attended many events that have archery, but no classes (in a two year
period).  In fact the  number of events that had Marshalling classes could
be counted on one hand.   A Warranted Marshal is one who has gone through
the training and shows that they can perform the duties required to make a
safe archery environment. If the rules and regulations change that much then
we have a problem. CPR certification is not the skill level required here.
Besides, we have all come across marshals who attend the Marshalling class
at the appropriate frequency, but their skill level or confidence as a MIC
is not there or has not improved, and as Marshals, we watch to assist these
individuals many times behind the scenes and when appropriate point out the
ways they can improve in a private setting.  I agree that we all shouldl
brush up on the rules and hear some of the experiences that hopefully would
be brought out in a classroom environment, but I see no reason to cancel or
remove a qualified and proven individual from our Marshalling ranks, just
because they could not attend a class.

Ted - This is more than an archery requirement, it is a kingdom level decision.
In fact, do not be sunrise in the near future when the training gets a new level
of information. At first they were thinking of making all marshals, in all
fields, attending their respective marshals classes AND attend another kingdom
level marshal class every two years. It has calmed down to allowing the kingdom
level information be added to the specific marshals classes. The reason for
Regional Marshal initiation into the structure was to help ensure that everyone
could get a class when they need it (university, event, practice, private
sitting, etc). Regional marshals cover 50% of the kingdom now (hopefully more
later) so there should be no reason why any marshal should ever be overdue on a
marshal class. This will be addressed in a separate email shortly. In the little
time that I have been in the SCA (all of that time in archery) a marshal has
been required to maintain the class to be a mars!
hal. That has not changed. At the present 25% of the listed marshals are
'overdue'. But we are still catching up and they are still on 'slack' time. But
time is running out because I will be running out of time at the kingdom level.
Again as stated above, I agree with you. Just because you have been to the class
and MIT'ed at two events does not mean that your make a great Marshal In Charge.
The classes are to cover the basics and to update everyone on any new
information. No one will lose their marshals name immediately after they become
'overdue'. The marshal will be contacted personally and a time for class will be
set up. We don't set it in stone, we are here to work with each other and get
the best of our environment.

Ignacio - I have no problem with having to attend a class every so often. My
problem was with the fact that the class hasn't been conveniently scheduled or
available for many to attend in the past. Besides the University, if local
enough, and several classes held at a BrightHills or Lochmere event, there
hasn't been that many opportunities for some to attend a class.  I know with the
new Regional Marshals, you're trying to remedy that, and I applaud you for that.
However, we need a better method of communicating when and where these classes
will be held. And if held at a local event, they need to be coordinated  so that
they don't hinder or compromise the archery event and cause conflicts.  Most
event notices, outside of the University, never mention that a marshal class
will be held.  For example when and where will the next class be held??

   I know their was none at the 7 events I attended so far..

  So What about...

   Garb War or Storvik Baronial Birthday (same weekend, both say they will have
archery)
   On Target
   Sapphire Joust  (No target archery mentioned)
   Highland River Melees
   Stierbach Baronial Birthday
   Storvik Novice Tourney
   Flights of Fancy
   Black Diamond Assessment
   Vikng Thyng
   Kingdom Crusade
   All Hallows
    etc..
Which of these will have a target Marshal class, so that the Marshals know which
ones they can try to attend to fulfil their obligation???

Ted - check with your regional marshal. It is listed on the marshals pages. It is as much your responsibility to ensure that you attend a class as it is the Regional Marshals responsibility to ensure that classes are given. Hopefully the future will not be a reflection of the past.


Again, I think rules, regulations and proper procedures and guidelines are
necessary. We just need to make them reasonable, workable and meaningful.

Well, that's enough for now.
 Theodore


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