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<TITLE>RE: [MR] Call for Comments</TITLE>
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<P> <FONT SIZE=2>Changing Single combat to group or team formats will only allow more potential for abuse. The Simplest format will always be the easiest to regulate and watch for abuse. If you think the populace doesn't know how "some" crowns have been won, then its a simple case of denial. There are plenty of cases of abuse in the current system. I have watched house holds form teams to enter crown with the expressed intent of moving one person up the ladder easier. This is done by presenting very challenging bouts to the strongest contenders and rolling over for the team captain. Cycling is a very individual contest but anyone that thinks the team does not assist the winners just do not get it. Yes there are abuses in the current system. But complicating or tricking up the system would only make for more potential abuse. If you want to spread the pool winners then other factors have to be added that still maintain individual head to head trials. it would be less susceptible to abuse to add Fencing, unarmed combat, Archery, Chess,etc.. I think a 3-4 day decathlon would be a hoot. Might kill off a few entrants but hey that's period too. And true competitors will match the competition and you will eventually get to a pool of most likely winners with a few dark horse hitting occasionally. Sound Familiar?</FONT></P>
<P><FONT SIZE=2>The end of the world must be near, I have agreed with a Norman twice in less than a moon</FONT>
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<P><FONT SIZE=2>AshaHito</FONT>
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<BR>
<P><FONT SIZE=2>> -----Original Message-----</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> From: Logan [<A HREF="mailto:dukelogan@directvinternet.com">mailto:dukelogan@directvinternet.com</A>]</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> Sent: Friday, September 06, 2002 1:43 AM</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> To: David W. James; atlantia@atlantia.sca.org</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> Subject: RE: [MR] Call for Comments</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> since i was mentioned i will respond.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> oddly i find that i can easily prove a popularity contest in </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> any format that</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> allows teams. i can stack a team and ensure victory in 99 </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> out or 100 tries</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> (ive done so every year i have put together a team for the 10 man at</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> pennsic). single combat between two fighters under the gaze </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> of the populace</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> in attendance is the only way to avoid that. granted that </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> does not, and</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> certainly has not, stopped fighters that desired a win over </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> their own honor</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> from walking through a few blows but it provides more checks </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> and balances</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> than anything allowing teams to compete. be that team a two, </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> five or fifty</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> man unit.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> limiting the number of chiv on a team is also weak as i can </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> put together</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> teams of five chiv that cant beat teams of five unbelts. the fighting</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> prowess of a knight certainly is part of what determines </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> whether or not he</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> is recognized as one. however, that prowess changes year to </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> year. just</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> because a fighter is belted does not dictate nor ensure his </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> current level of</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> ability.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> creating blind teams out of the available participants is </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> also bogus as it</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> opens the door for one team to get blindly stacked or favoritism to</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> influence how hard a fighter fights against his mates.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> regards</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> logan</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> ps please understand that i personally am cool with whatever </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> format and</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> whatever degrees of silliness people want to create to change </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> the way we</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> decide our future monarchs. im only trying to inject some </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> realism into the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> idea that allowing multiple parties choose who the individual </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> is that sits</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> the throne is flawed in every respect.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> -----Original Message-----</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> From: atlantia-admin@atlantia.sca.org</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> [<A HREF="mailto:atlantia-admin@atlantia.sca.org">mailto:atlantia-admin@atlantia.sca.org</A>]On Behalf Of David W. James</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> Sent: Thursday, September 05, 2002 9:45 PM</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> To: atlantia@atlantia.sca.org</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> Subject: Re: [MR] Call for Comments</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> On Thursday, September 5, 2002, at 08:00 PM, Becky McEllistrem wrote:</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > It seems to me his majesty carefully explained</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > anything other than individual comment could so easily</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > become a popularity contents.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > It wasn't a very old discussion. I believe it</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > happened in the last 6 months.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > Rebecca</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> March or April sounds about right. Might have been </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> May. If you go to</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> the web archive and check those months you should find it.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> His Majesty presented his opinion that some formats could become</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> popularity contests, but in no way proved that all non-single </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> lists had to</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> be. For example, it is hard to see how a Crown with two </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> person teams would</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> be,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> Or one with 5 member teams (no more than two members of </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> the Chivalry per</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> team) until there there are only 2/3/4 teams left, then the </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> Captain's of</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> the teams fight single combat to decide the winner.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> Or... well, you get the idea. There are lots of </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> potential formats that</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> don't share the 'popularity contest' flaw. Lots of them that </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> do too. But</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> then there are some great (not to mention less obviously </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> modern) formats</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> besides double-elim for single combat too, but that's what is </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> written into</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> Kingdom law.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> The Board is requesting commentary on this proposal. </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> Please consider it</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> and give them your thoughts. There was considerable </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> agitation at the table</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> (both officers and Board members) to make the change they </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> proposed last</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> time (only single combat allowed in Crown lists.) It was the </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> commentary</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> that they received that caused the Board to *not* implement </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> that change as</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> worded. It was pointed out at the meeting that this </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> variation addressed</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> many of the concerns while leaving some avenue for experimentation and</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> research.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> Personally, I suspect that A) it will not be used very </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> often (look at</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> how many times we've had them to date, and it has been legal </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> all this time)</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> and B) such a request's chance of getting approved by the </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> Board is only</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> slightly better than the proverbial snowball's. Very slightly.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> David/Kwellend-Njal</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> </FONT>
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