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<DIV align=left class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Rupert Gaddy
[mailto:rgaddy@bellsouth.net]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, March 05, 2002 10:39
AM<BR><B>To:</B> EoganOg@aol.com<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE:
Heresy<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV align=left class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr><FONT face=Tahoma><FONT
size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> EoganOg@aol.com
[mailto:EoganOg@aol.com]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, March 04, 2002 2:11
PM<BR><B>To:</B> rgaddy@bellsouth.net<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re:
Heresy<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV></FONT><FONT size=2><FONT face=Arial><SPAN class=292433714-05032002><FONT
color=#0000ff>Indeed, Eogan I had meant to take it off the list, but
subsequent posts would seem to make the discussion able to continue on
it. Like one other author I am pleased to see a discussion of a major
part of the history of our period on the list, a part that is usually
avoided. So far at least, we have shown ourselves to be more courteous
and open than similar discussions on other lists with no one attacking core
beliefs to the other or claiming to be "right". Unfortunately I can find
no evidence in the original question beyond what has already been cited.
Women seemed to have played a larger role in, for example the Waldensian
movement, but since these were "heretics" any evidence would be useless to the
original question asked.</FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2><FONT face=Arial><SPAN
class=292433714-05032002></SPAN></FONT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2><FONT face=Arial><SPAN class=292433714-05032002><FONT
color=#0000ff>My points have always been to show that "heresy" and
"orthodox" are relative terms, dependent on time and place (as well as point
of view and which "authority" was accepted). The "doctrines" of
the Christian faith have continued to evolve and be defined over a long period
of time, with some disagreement as to what is Orthodox and what is "heretical"
as it has developed. Thus it is hard to use these terms without
specifically identifying both the time and place in which they are being
used. Heretical is being on the loosing side of a question, orthodox is
being on the winning side. We can argue about whether the "right" side
lost or won, but I see no point in that.</FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2><FONT face=Arial><SPAN
class=292433714-05032002></SPAN></FONT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2><FONT face=Arial><SPAN
class=292433714-05032002></SPAN></FONT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2><FONT face=Arial><SPAN
class=292433714-05032002></SPAN></FONT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2><FONT face=Arial><SPAN
class=292433714-05032002> </SPAN>This message was sent just to me, so I
assume you want to take this off list. If you meant to send this to the
Merry Rose, please forward my reply on as well. <BR><BR>In a message dated
3/4/02 7:14:34 AM Eastern Standard Time, rgaddy@bellsouth.net writes:
<BR><BR><BR></DIV></FONT><FONT face=Arial></FONT><FONT size=2>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"
TYPE="CITE">One does not need to look to Luther, one can go back to Huss or
Waldo. <BR></FONT></FONT><FONT color=#000000 lang=0 size=3
FAMILY="SANSSERIF"></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><BR><FONT face=Arial>Both condemned by the Church for heresy. Huss
for propogating the same heresies espouced by Wycliff, and Waldo for any
number of heretical teachigns, such as denying the existence of purgatory,
prayers for the dead, that swearing oathes is a sin, etc.</FONT></FONT><FONT
color=#000000 face=Arial lang=0 FAMILY="SANSSERIF"><FONT size=2> <FONT
color=#0000ff></FONT><FONT size=2><SPAN
class=292433714-05032002> </SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000000 face=Arial lang=0 FAMILY="SANSSERIF"><FONT
color=#0000ff><FONT size=2><SPAN
class=292433714-05032002></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff><FONT face=Arial lang=0 FAMILY="SANSSERIF"><FONT
size=2><SPAN class=292433714-05032002>Waldo, however can not
be documented for these supposed heresies until AFTER he was
excommunicated except perhaps the swearing of oaths. The rejection of
prayers for the dead and some sacraments came after he was denied them.
Waldo was actually condemned by his representative's answer to a question of
"believe in" in regards to anything except the Trinity, as at that time it was
contrary to doctrine to use that term for anything except the Trinity....a
"trick question" by the Council to show the "ignorance" of the common
people..." the unlearned". Waldo's representatives who had voluntarily
gone to the council to receive approval were thus laughed out of the
Council.</SPAN><BR></FONT></FONT><FONT lang=0 size=3
FAMILY="SANSSERIF"></FONT><BR></DIV></FONT><FONT lang=0 size=2
FAMILY="SANSSERIF"><FONT face=Arial>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"
TYPE="CITE">Also if one looks at the difference only a few years makes
between the view <BR>of heresy you might compare Waldo and his treatment
with that of the almost <BR>identical St Francis and the Franciscans.
<BR></FONT><FONT lang=0 size=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF"></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><BR><BR></FONT><FONT lang=0 FAMILY="SANSSERIF"><FONT face=Arial><FONT
size=2>Both the Waldenses and the Franciscans encouraged poverty among their
members. But where is the rampant heresy in the Franciscans that one
found among the Waldenses? There is the difference. <FONT
color=#0000ff></FONT><FONT size=2><SPAN
class=292433714-05032002> </SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT lang=0 FAMILY="SANSSERIF"><FONT face=Arial><FONT
color=#0000ff><FONT size=2><SPAN
class=292433714-05032002></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT lang=0 FAMILY="SANSSERIF"><FONT face=Arial><FONT size=2><FONT
color=#0000ff><SPAN class=292433714-05032002>The major "heresy" did
not materialize until after the Council. There are remarkable
similarities, and the one that Waldo was condemned for (LAYMEN preaching) was
a part of the Franciscan order, as was poverty. Waldo 100 years later
would have been accepted as orthodox, and perhaps the "heretical" ideas of the
group would never have come
about.</SPAN><BR><BR></FONT></DIV></FONT></FONT><FONT size=2><FONT face=Arial>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"
TYPE="CITE"> The problem of solo scriptoria or tradtiion goes
much further back than <BR>Luther, or even Waldo and Huss...
<BR></FONT></FONT></FONT><FONT lang=0 size=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF"></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><BR><BR></FONT><FONT face=Arial lang=0 FAMILY="SANSSERIF"><FONT
size=2>Really? I have always read that Luther was the first to espouse
the "Sola Scriptura" doctrine that is the hallmark of Protestantism. Who
espouses it before him? </FONT><FONT size=2><SPAN
class=292433714-05032002> </SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000000 face=Arial lang=0 FAMILY="SANSSERIF"><FONT
color=#0000ff><FONT size=2><SPAN
class=292433714-05032002></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff><FONT face=Arial lang=0 FAMILY="SANSSERIF"><FONT
size=2><SPAN class=292433714-05032002>Indeed as you mentioned Wyclif, it
goes back at least to him. He declared the Scriptures to be the only law of
the church; (at this time there were two competing popes). I believe it was in
Wyclif's <I>On Civil Lordship</I> in 1376 but may have confused the
source. Certainly Hus also advocated this. Wyclif's support of
scripture as the exclusive standard of faith is even mentioned (but skimmed
over) in the Catholic Encyclopedia. Indeed it was not this point, or even his
opposition to property holding by the Church that got him into trouble, but
rather his attack on Transubstantiation.</SPAN><BR><BR><BR></FONT></FONT><FONT
lang=0 size=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF"></FONT><BR></DIV></FONT><FONT color=#000000
lang=0 size=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF"><FONT face=Arial>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"
TYPE="CITE">You didn't bite on the myth of the female pope....
<BR></FONT><FONT color=#000000 lang=0 size=3
FAMILY="SANSSERIF"></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><BR><BR></FONT><FONT color=#000000 face=Arial lang=0
FAMILY="SANSSERIF"><FONT size=2>What was there for me to bite on? Are
you trying to bait me somehow? The myth of "Pope Joan" is just a myth.
It never happened, and it's pretty easy to prove that it never happened.
No one other than anti-Catholic propogandists takes it seriously.
We can talk about it if you like, but I don't see its
relavence. <FONT color=#0000ff></FONT><FONT size=2><SPAN
class=292433714-05032002> </SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000000 face=Arial lang=0 FAMILY="SANSSERIF"><FONT
color=#0000ff><FONT size=2><SPAN
class=292433714-05032002></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff><FONT face=Arial lang=0 FAMILY="SANSSERIF"><FONT
size=2><SPAN class=292433714-05032002>Those with serious scholarship of the
period know this, those who are dabbling do not, in a way it was a baited
hook......you avoided it. Sorry, kind of the same trick question that
the Council used against Waldo.......</SPAN><BR><BR><BR></FONT></FONT><FONT
lang=0 size=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF"></FONT><BR></DIV></FONT><FONT color=#000000
lang=0 size=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF"><FONT face=Arial>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"
TYPE="CITE">What about when there were TWO Roman popes? <BR></FONT><FONT
color=#000000 lang=0 size=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF"></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><BR><BR></FONT><FONT color=#000000 lang=0 FAMILY="SANSSERIF"><BR><FONT
face=Arial size=2>I assume you are referring to the Western Schism. Easy
enough. There was only ever ONE Pope. And there was one anti-pope,
or false pope. For a while there was confusion over which was which, but
there never were two ligitimate popes at the same time. In fact, at one
point there were even three men claiming to be pope. But claiming to be
pope doesn't make you pope. Did you know that there are a few anti-popes
out there today, in 2002? At least a couple I know of, calling
themselves Pope Pius XIII. No one really takes them seriously other than
their own small band of followers. <BR><BR>The issue was a bit more
confusing in the fourteenth century, but it doesn't change the fact there
there was only ever one true pope. <BR><BR>What is it that you are trying to
prove here? <SPAN class=292433714-05032002><FONT
color=#0000ff> </FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000000 lang=0 FAMILY="SANSSERIF"><FONT face=Arial
size=2><SPAN class=292433714-05032002></SPAN></FONT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000000 lang=0 FAMILY="SANSSERIF"><FONT face=Arial
size=2><SPAN class=292433714-05032002><FONT color=#0000ff>That when two people
claim authority, that whoever sides with the looser is a heretic, though
at the time may be considered orthodox. I seem to remember a period
(During Hus?) that THREE people had reasonable (to their advocates at least)
claims to the Papacy.</FONT> </SPAN><BR><BR>Aye, <BR>Eogan
<BR><BR></FONT></FONT><FONT color=#000000 lang=0 size=3
FAMILY="SANSSERIF"><BR></DIV></FONT><FONT color=#000000 lang=0
FAMILY="SANSSERIF">
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"
TYPE="CITE"><FONT face=Arial size=2>Rupert <BR></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><FONT size=2><FONT color=#0000ff><FONT face=Arial><SPAN
class=292433714-05032002> </SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2><FONT color=#0000ff><FONT face=Arial><SPAN
class=292433714-05032002></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2><FONT face=Arial><FONT color=#0000ff><SPAN
class=292433714-05032002>Indeed my major point is to ask for clarity in
the discussion (and its tangents) by giving both date and place when
discussing questions of Orthodoxy or Heresy, less we be tempted to
confusion.</SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2><FONT face=Arial><FONT color=#0000ff><SPAN
class=292433714-05032002></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=292433714-05032002></SPAN><FONT size=2><FONT
color=#0000ff><FONT face=Arial><SPAN class=292433714-05032002>I will continue
to attempt to find information on the original question, but since the church
has been so long male dominated, I fear if there was evidence it has been
repressed or destroyed as "heretical" or "unorthodox" after its possible
acceptance in an earlier time.</SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2><FONT color=#0000ff><FONT face=Arial><SPAN
class=292433714-05032002></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2><FONT color=#0000ff><FONT face=Arial><SPAN
class=292433714-05032002>Rupert</SPAN><BR><BR><BR><BR></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></BODY></HTML>