<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"><FONT SIZE=2>In a message dated 3/1/02 2:06:08 AM Eastern Standard Time, rowanwald@sybercom.net writes:
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<BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"> I realized upon reading your responses that we are at cross-purposes. I was addressing women priests who were Christian, and you were addressing "ordained by the early church", with "church" meaning the Roman Church. That gives us each different parameters. </FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE>
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<BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">Well, slightly, but not really. Again, there is a tendancy to project our modern arena of this vast multitude of Christian denominations and sects back to the early church. We read about these various heretical movements and tend to assume that they were simply "alternate" Christianities, different sect, different denominations if you will.
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<BR>But such was not the case. None of these early heresies established their own seperate church. All existed within the Catholic Church, while denying or perverting authentic Catholic teaching. And they eventually were stamped out by correct, orthodox teaching -- sometimes very quickly, sometimes after quite a while. But different denominations they were not.
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<BR>So, if your goal in research is to see if any early heretical sects attempted women ordination, then you may very well prove that. And, I suppose, using our modern day, very broad definition of Christianity (that encompases such extrememly different faiths as Catholicism, Mormonism, Oneness Pentecostals, and Unitarian Universalists), you could label these early heresies Christian. But the danger there woudl be in misleading peopel into thinking that women's ordination in the early church was an accepted practice.
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<BR>In fact, I would be surprised if more than just a few of the heretical sects actually endorsed women's ordination.
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<BR>No way would I state that the Roman practise, or even the Eastern, after the 300s, </FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
<BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">allowed or condoned women officiates! </FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE>
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<BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">Nor did they before 300, I would add.
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<BR>The question for me is did they exist as Christian priests before that time within the </FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
<BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">developing church, which is what the reference to Paul and Peter's letters is addressing </FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE>
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<BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">But the reference given in the epistles was to deaconesses, which I have shown is a very different thing than a priest, and in fact is different from a modern deacon, in that it is a lay position, with no ordination.
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<BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"> Tracing down stories and references to Irish Christianity before/during the time of Patrick is tough, and again, the question of women officiates is not the thrust of my research, but I do find references to this, as well as discussion within the community about eucharistic practises by non-Catholics.</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE>
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<BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">I would caution that so far the only evidence to women's ordination in the Celtic Church (which, contrary to popular opinion was still part of the Catholic Church, just a non-Roman rite), was a letter from a bishop instructing a priest to not allow women to assist him in the liturgy. So once again, there is no evidence suggesting the woman was actually ordained. And the evidence further suggests that this practice was an anomoly that was not to be tolerated.
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<BR> But finding anything definitive is nigh impossible, and as your response clearly </FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
<BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">showed - what works as possible evidence for one researcher, is not acceptable to the other.</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
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<BR>Sigh. I do believe that history is a science. If we are capable of examining the evidence clearly and objectively, then there should not be a problem. It should not be a case of different researches having different standards for evidence. It should be about whether or not the evidence actually proves what the researcher is claiming it to.
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<BR>And a reference to a heretical sect encouraging women to assist priests at mass does not prove that the early church ordained women to the priesthood. It does not even prove that the heretical sect ordained women, only that they encouraged them to assist the priest.
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<BR>And finally, if my response suggested to you that "finding anything definite is nigh impossible" then I am sorry. I was attempting to show just how possible it is to find ample, definite, evidence showing that the early church most definitely did not ordain women priests, nor did they tolerate women assisting priests at mass in the heretical sects.
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<BR>Aye,
<BR>Eogan</FONT></HTML>