[MR] Opinion on peerage -- RE: Atlantia Digest, Vol 100, Issue 8

[Rick Allison]

Really well thought out and interesting posts,
from what I can gather "Knighthood" is a prowess, but no other virtues?
That is not how I was raised in the SCA (aka back in the hoary olds days of 1982)
 
KSCA members exemplified the knightly virtues and also practiced the other arts and sciences,
 as a knght of the SCA was also the ambassador of the organization and guardian of the dream and the game.
 
But the whole extracted definitions and terms from the various sources seem to point that armored combat need not be the only martial art.
 
As for me, to be a competent armored, rapier and C/T combatant, musician, autocrat, instructor, armor constructionist, and all around showman is enough.
 
I believe I said the following to a peer at this past Roxbury Mill event.
"To be a peer one must act as a peer."


Rich Allison
threeallisons at hotmail.com 
Cell 240/463-3956
Please consider the environment before printing this email

"...Let me explain about the theatre business.
The natural condition is one of insurmountable obstacles on the road 
to imminent disaster. Believe me, to be close by the plague is a bagatelle 
in the ups and downs of owning a theatre....Strangely enough , it all turns out well.
It's a mystery."




 

> From: atlantia-request at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org
> Subject: Atlantia Digest, Vol 100, Issue 8
> To: atlantia at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org
> Date: Mon, 2 May 2011 10:35:14 -0700
> 
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> Today's Topics:
> 
> 1. Re: opinions on peerage (E. L. Wimett)
> 2. (no subject) (Thorwulfgar Uvaerkaller)
> 3. oops. (Thorwulfgar Uvaerkaller)
> 4. Re: opinions on peerage (Sandi Rust)
> 5. Awards to those in small groups (clarification) (Bonnie Davis)
> 6. Re: Roxbury Mill martial Arts Symposium Thank-yous --
> Atlantia Digest, Vol 100, Issue 4 (Rick Allison)
> 7. Re: opinions on peerage (Steve Lackey)
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Message: 1
> Date: Mon, 2 May 2011 13:28:18 -0400
> From: "E. L. Wimett" <silverdragon at charleston.net>
> To: <atlantia at atlantia.sca.org>
> Subject: Re: [MR] opinions on peerage
> Message-ID: <55E053A8617E4153B308231DCBF27413 at Silverdragon1>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
> reply-type=original
> 
> No, you were just channeling your inner old timer, Janos.
> 
> There was another rather similar proposal together with one for "super 
> peers" made in the early 1980's when WIlhelm von Schlussel was Laurel. . .
> 
> And, of course, the wildcat Ansteorran swashery peerage row dates back that 
> far as well. . . (One reason why the White Scarf was so controversial with 
> some . . .)
> 
> Alisoun
> Been there, done that, used the tee shirt for bandages
> 
> -----Original Message----- 
> From: J. C. Smith isp?n
> Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 1:07 PM
> To: Merry Rose
> Subject: Re: [MR] opinions on peerage
> 
> Oops....typo. Should be 18, not 28, years.
> 
> JEFFREY C. SMITH
> 
> "The principle of spending money to be paid by posterity, under the name of
> funding, is but swindling futurity on a large scale." --Thomas Jefferson
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ________________________________
> From: J. C. Smith isp?n <jsmithcsa at yahoo.com>
> To: Merry Rose <atlantia at atlantia.sca.org>
> Sent: Mon, May 2, 2011 1:06:29 PM
> Subject: Re: [MR] opinions on peerage
> 
> ...and reorganization of the peerage was not a new idea then either.
> 
> About 28 years ago there was a plan to make all peers knights (IIRC the idea 
> was
> 
> to have "Knights of the Pelican", etc.) so discontent with the system goes 
> back
> that far. There may have been an intermediate polling, too -- they seem to 
> come
> 
> and go with no effect, since this discontent, while recurring, has not 
> enjoyed
> the support of the Society as a whole.
> 
> Barcsi Janos
> 
> JEFFREY C. SMITH
> 
> "The principle of spending money to be paid by posterity, under the name of
> funding, is but swindling futurity on a large scale." --Thomas Jefferson
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ________________________________
> From: Michael Mitchell <wymarc10 at comcast.net>
> To: atlantia at atlantia.sca.org
> Sent: Mon, May 2, 2011 12:57:08 PM
> Subject: Re: [MR] opinions on peerage
> 
> IIRC, It was earlier this year that the society hosted a poll inviting
> members to give their opinions on a wide number of topics including patent
> level recognition of the newer (yes, it is important to remember that they
> are relatively new to the game) marshal activities mentioning specifically
> rapier, archery, thrown weapons, and equestrian.
> 
> Give it time.
> 
> 
> 
> Lord Michael Wymarc
> ========================================================================
> The Merry Rose Tavern at Cheapside
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> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 2
> Date: Mon, 2 May 2011 10:30:23 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Thorwulfgar Uvaerkaller <thorwulff at yahoo.com>
> To: atlantia at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org
> Subject: [MR] (no subject)
> Message-ID: <570552.14511.qm at web31701.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> 
> 
> 
> Fearlessness is better then a faint heart for any man who puts his nose out of 
> doors,The length of my life and the day of my death were fated long ago.
> 
> Thorwulfgar Uvaerkaller
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 3
> Date: Mon, 2 May 2011 10:31:05 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Thorwulfgar Uvaerkaller <thorwulff at yahoo.com>
> To: atlantia at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org
> Subject: [MR] oops.
> Message-ID: <23747.49363.qm at web31706.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> 
> sorry I went too fast responding to something.I also wanted to see if I was on 
> this list.
> 
> Torgar
> 
> Fearlessness is better then a faint heart for any man who puts his nose out of 
> doors,The length of my life and the day of my death were fated long ago.
> 
> Thorwulfgar Uvaerkaller
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 4
> Date: Mon, 2 May 2011 10:31:33 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Sandi Rust <feo2mouse at yahoo.com>
> To: "atlantia at atlantia.sca.org" <atlantia at atlantia.sca.org>
> Subject: Re: [MR] opinions on peerage
> Message-ID: <118788.92081.qm at web65404.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
> 
> Please forgive me as I do a "back in the day" posting... 
> ?
> When I was a Newcomer, back so many eons (ok decades) ago, I was taught and shown examples of The Peerages. I was taught that a Peer was an example of everything Good and Right in the SCA. They were the teachers and inspirations of those striving to achieve "greatness" in whichever "field" they were drawn to. Pelicans showed the Sacrifice of service and many were also artists and warriors, Laurels showed the grace of the Arts and also aerved, some showed the exquisite arts of martial combat, the Chivalry showed the prowess in battle and the arts and service. 
> I once was going to squire to a knight. ?He told me that a knight was more than a great fighter, they had to be versed in the other peerages as well - he encouraged the art of music or drumming, but he also loved the art of the dance, and he was big into SERVICE and more to *just* the household, to everyone who needed assistance. The 7 Chivalric virtues were to be followed.. he felt that they should be followed by all, but ESPECIALLY?the Peerages: Courage, Justice, Mercy, Generosity, Faith, Nobilty and Hope. I wasn't able to squire to him because of difficulties with his wife.. oh well, I was soon not going to be able to fight Armored combat anymore either.? But the lessons and example is still there. As I grow older in the SCA, I see a sad few of these examples - sure, we have knights that are the greatest on the field, but fall short of non-fighting related things. Too many Laurels who are resting and very few Pelicans who are getting down and dirty
> in the serving. I can understand burnout... I can understand needing to be of a compatable mindframe, I can understand not having the time; ?but I remember the days when someone would ask for teaching and if that person didn't feel up to it, they passed the person on to another in the field of interest (not what I was told a few years ago: "You don't have to be under the tutelage of a Laurel of the same interest.").? Maybe I'm just hoping for a return of the days of my "youth".. when a household gave support, but wasn't necessary to be with the "right people", When politics took a second seat, to helping another to achieve "The Dream".
> ?
> Lady Marie H?l?ne of the New Forest (San)
> 
> --- On Mon, 5/2/11, Murienne l'aloiere <dragonfly78 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> From: Murienne l'aloiere <dragonfly78 at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [MR] opinions on peerage
> To: "Jim/Mathias" <jsfrodo at gmail.com>
> Cc: "atlantia at atlantia.sca.org" <atlantia at atlantia.sca.org>
> Date: Monday, May 2, 2011, 12:52 PM
> 
> 
> Actually there is a place in Corpora that has definitions of the Patent
> Orders...
> 
> VIII.A.4.a -
> The Chivalry: The Chivalry consists of two equal parts: Knighthood and
> Mastery of
> Arms. No one may belong to both parts of the order at one time. When a
> member is admitted to the Chivalry by the Sovereign, the choice of which
> part of the order to join is made by the new member. The candidate must be
> considered the equal of his or her prospective peers with the basic weapons
> of tournament combat. To become a Knight, the candidate must swear fealty to
> the Crown of his or her kingdom during the knighting ceremony. Masters of
> Arms may choose to swear fealty, but are not required to do so.
> 
> 
> basic weapons of tournament combat....
> I do not recall ever having heard of rapier or bow being part of these.
> I may be very wrong in this so please be gentle with your correction if I
> am.
> 
> Lady Murienne
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 5
> Date: Mon, 2 May 2011 10:32:12 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Bonnie Davis <bonniwort at yahoo.com>
> To: atlantia at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org
> Subject: [MR] Awards to those in small groups (clarification)
> Message-ID: <837058.78930.qm at web120214.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
> 
> I would like to clarify a statement in point two of what I posted earlier... in "getting one's name out there" I did NOT (neither did the peer in question) mean that someone should "campaign" for an award. That would?certainly be?NON-peerlike behavior.
> ?
> What I meant was that they should consider stepping up for further service activities, and thus make their name known to more people, ie. autocratting, volunteering for retaining or other kingdom positions, volunteering to help with another group's event (Atlantian 30th year, perhaps?). Letting people?know your name by your actions, even beyond your own small group.
> ?
> -Lady Martine Picot
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 6
> Date: Mon, 2 May 2011 13:33:51 -0400
> From: Rick Allison <threeallisons at hotmail.com>
> To: Merry Rose <atlantia at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org>
> Subject: Re: [MR] Roxbury Mill martial Arts Symposium Thank-yous --
> Atlantia Digest, Vol 100, Issue 4
> Message-ID: <BAY164-w31B7BC12F09C6052BF79F9A89F0 at phx.gbl>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> 
> 
> Fellow Atlantians,
> Good greetings and long life to you,
> 
> On Behalf of the Free Shire Of Roxbury Mill,
> Our heartfelt thanks go out to all who attended and assisted with this first annual event.
> 
> In service
> 
> Laird Seanne Alansyn
> Rich Allison
> threeallisons at hotmail.com 
> Cell 240/463-3956
> Please consider the environment before printing this email
> 
> "...Let me explain about the theatre business.
> The natural condition is one of insurmountable obstacles on the road 
> to imminent disaster. Believe me, to be close by the plague is a bagatelle 
> in the ups and downs of owning a theatre....Strangely enough , it all turns out well.
> It's a mystery."
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 7
> Date: Mon, 2 May 2011 13:33:58 -0400
> From: Steve Lackey <edeconde at gmail.com>
> To: "Murienne l'aloiere" <dragonfly78 at gmail.com>
> Cc: "atlantia at atlantia.sca.org" <atlantia at atlantia.sca.org>
> Subject: Re: [MR] opinions on peerage
> Message-ID: <BANLkTim1Ep7_wpKO1TzcOvm97mn0ODMzRg at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
> 
> Hey Murienne,
> 
> I think you are correct, in a way. I think that there may have been
> tournaments fought with rapier in history, but they were past our time
> frame. I can think of no tourneys that utilized the bow outside of
> fiction such as Robin Hood (not saying it didn't happen, I'm just
> ignorant of it if it did). Back in the mists of time, long before I
> started playing, rapier utilized foils, then epee's. I started playing
> shortly after the switch to heavy rapier blades as a default. Now the
> "default" blades are much closer to the tourney blades that would have
> been used, although not quite there for the most part.
> 
> That being said, the sword I fight with now can be found here:
> 
> http://www.cashanwei.com/prod_Detail.aspx?id=SH2106
> 
> While under rapier's aegis, there is nothing you can call that other
> than a broad sword, and it's used in the very new form of Cut and
> Thrust. No, I'm not pushing for a C&T peerage - but there is also no
> way that sword could not be considered a basic weapon used in
> tournament combat within our time frame. I'm fairly sure that all of
> the "C&T use only" type blades would fall into this category. For that
> matter, I'm also pretty sure that the Long swords that we utilize as
> "heavy" rapiers were also used in tournament combat, and are pretty
> close in function to what is used for great swords in armored combat.
> That doesn't mean I'm advocating for a "rapier knighthood" or peerage
> - but there will come a time in the future where I can see C&T folks
> that are not "regular" armored fighters start using that exact
> argument as to why they should be knighted. They will be able to
> persuasively argue that they are actually using weapons closer to what
> may have been found, they are more authentic, etc, etc. I rather doubt
> that it will matter in the least when all is said and done.
> 
> I would also like to gently point out that it does not say "basic
> weapons of *period* tournament combat", and that not all of the
> tourney's that are held within our fair kingdom are utilizing armored
> combat, thus not all basic weapons of tournament combat are made of
> rattan within the SCA or Atlantia.
> 
> ~Estienne
> 
> 
> 
> On Mon, May 2, 2011 at 12:52 PM, Murienne l'aloiere
> <dragonfly78 at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Actually there is a place in Corpora that has definitions of the Patent
> > Orders...
> >
> > VIII.A.4.a -
> > The Chivalry: The Chivalry consists of two equal parts: Knighthood and
> > Mastery of
> > Arms. No one may belong to both parts of the order at one time. When a
> > member is admitted to the Chivalry by the Sovereign, the choice of which
> > part of the order to join is made by the new member. The candidate must be
> > considered the equal of his or her prospective peers with the basic weapons
> > of tournament combat. To become a Knight, the candidate must swear fealty to
> > the Crown of his or her kingdom during the knighting ceremony. Masters of
> > Arms may choose to swear fealty, but are not required to do so.
> >
> >
> > basic weapons of tournament combat....
> > I do not recall ever having heard of rapier or bow being part of these.
> > I may be very wrong in this so please be gentle with your correction if I
> > am.
> >
> > Lady Murienne
> >
> >
> >
> > On Mon, May 2, 2011 at 12:20 PM, Jim/Mathias <jsfrodo at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> From Duke Logan:
> >> [quote] sure. ?elton john is a knight and i dont think he has any prior
> >> military
> >> service. ?but that not relevant in the sca. ?sca knights are just that,
> >> knights of the society. ?the requirements for induction into that order
> >> include chivalric combat. ?nobody is refusing to acknowledge any "real life
> >> period examples" regarding induction into our order.[/endquote]
> >>
> >> Lord Karl wasn't discussing Elton John, he specifically said:
> >> "real-life period examples of people getting knighted who had never
> >> suited up in armor". ?If you need an example, how about Sir Francis
> >> Drake? ?He was knighted in 1582 (within our period) for his service to
> >> the crown as an explorer, ship captain and privateer. ?I don't know
> >> how familiar Your Grace is with maritime combat in period, but heavy
> >> armor wasn't part of the equation, because swimming in armor is a
> >> really bad idea. ?Secondly, I've checked the Atlantian Books ?of Law
> >> and Policy and can find no definition of the Order of Chivalry, which
> >> leaves me with what's recorded on the Order of Precedence, which
> >> defines the Order of Chivalry as "One becomes a member of the Chivalry
> >> through martial prowess on the field." ?This says absolutely nothing
> >> about what type of combat you're practicing, it simply refers to being
> >> good at combat. ?Can you show me a reference that defines "chivalric"
> >> combat as taking place only with heavy armor and rattan weapons?
> >>
> >> From Her Majesty:
> >> [quote] the Society mandated and tradition grounded basis of the
> >> order. ?The order of Chivalry in the SCA was created for and about
> >> heavy fighting.[endquote]
> >>
> >> Your Majesty, I've seen nothing in Society documents that even defines
> >> the Peerage Orders, let alone mandates anything about them. ?As far as
> >> tradition goes, when the Order of Chivalry started, heavy fighting was
> >> the only kind of fighting in existence in the Society, so naturally
> >> that's what people associate with knighthood. ?However, that has
> >> changed, but the peerage-level recognition has not. ?There are some
> >> that point to the Order of the Laurel as the proper place for
> >> recognition of other martial activities, but (again from the Atlantian
> >> OP), "One becomes a Laurel through excellence in the arts and
> >> sciences." ?Skill with a rapier or a bow simply does not fit that
> >> description. ?And moreover, the simple fact is that the Order of the
> >> Laurel is NOT recognizing fencers or archers.
> >>
> >> You suggest looking at "the many ways we have of recognizing those
> >> contributions." Yes, the kingdom has many ways of recognizing folks,
> >> but there aren't equal levels of recognition. ?The problem is that
> >> while there is a route to a peerage for almost anything else in the
> >> Society, there is none for martial activities other than heavy combat.
> >> ?It's difficult for someone in one of the several neglected
> >> disciplines not to get discouraged and possibly bitter when they see
> >> those of great skill in their discipline, those who have served the
> >> kingdom well at events and wars, being overlooked for EQUAL
> >> recognition simply because they don't swing a piece of rattan.
> >>
> >> There was an old joke when I was in the Navy, "200 years of tradition
> >> totally unhampered by progress", a joke that was all too often founded
> >> in reality when the Navy as an organization refused to accept new
> >> ideas because "that's the way it's always been done". ?Blindly holding
> >> on to tradition and refusing to acknowledge that the world has
> >> changed, including the Known Worlde, and thereby refusing to recognize
> >> the skills and service of some people, is certainly not in keeping
> >> with the ideal of honor that the Society has set for itself.
> >>
> >> Yours in Service,
> >> Lord Mathias von Oldenburg
> >> ========================================================================
> >> ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? The Merry Rose Tavern at Cheapside
> >> ? ?List Info: http://merryrose.atlantia.sca.org/
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> >>
> > ========================================================================
> > ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? The Merry Rose Tavern at Cheapside
> > ? ?List Info: http://merryrose.atlantia.sca.org/
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> >
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> In Service,
> 
> Estienne de Cond?
> Argent, three falcons vert
> Supremus totus, Muneris
> ---------------
> MKA Steve Lackey
> 
> The truth is that there is nothing noble in being superior to somebody
> else. The only real nobility is in being superior to your former self.
> -? Whitney Young (1921 - 1971)
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> ========================================================================
> The Merry Rose Tavern at Cheapside
> List Info: http://merryrose.atlantia.sca.org/
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> 
> End of Atlantia Digest, Vol 100, Issue 8
> ****************************************