[MR] Opinions on peerage RE: Atlantia Digest, Vol 100, Issue 5

[Rick Allison]

good gentlefolk,
 
I have read this thread with much interest and I well impressed.
As a lowley old squire, I would like to suggest that
 
Peers are elevated because of example, behavior and actions.
Although I have met peers (very few) who did not give good example, or practice the full tennants of the station,
They still were considered and elevated and should therefore be granted and given regard and honor.
How a peer is elevated or why is not a judgement of the populace, but that of the orders and the Crowns.
These are people who by deed, action, example and service better the "game or dream" of the SCA.
 
At heart everyone who plays this game is a peer at some level already.
We all have those who look to each of us for examples and behavior.
 
Recommend your fellows to the orders, and for awards, the Crown does not know everyone, nor does the Laurel, Pelican or Knight.
 
My knight once gave me some very sage advice, " enjoy the game, be a knight, act like a knight, and perhaps someday you'll be a knight."
This holds for all that one seeks in life and within the SCA.  
Be your best, enjoy what you do and behave as you think a peer should and perhaps someday you will be a peer.
 
Laird Seanne Alansyn, Order of the Drachenwald Silver Guard, squire to Sir Raym Y Hyndyll
aka Rich Allison
threeallisons at hotmail.com 
Cell 240/463-3956
Please consider the environment before printing this email

"...Let me explain about the theatre business.
The natural condition is one of insurmountable obstacles on the road 
to imminent disaster. Believe me, to be close by the plague is a bagatelle 
in the ups and downs of owning a theatre....Strangely enough , it all turns out well.
It's a mystery."




 

> From: atlantia-request at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org
> Subject: Atlantia Digest, Vol 100, Issue 5
> To: atlantia at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org
> Date: Mon, 2 May 2011 09:21:14 -0700
> 
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> Today's Topics:
> 
> 1. Re: opinions on peerage (Charles Sprouse)
> 2. Re: opinion on peerage... (Rorik smior)
> 3. Re: opinion on peerage... (Alexandria Stratton)
> 4. Re: opinion on peerage... (ldmolly at md.metrocast.net)
> 5. Re: opinion on peerage... (Maymunah al Siqilliyah)
> 6. Awards to those in small groups... (Bonnie Davis)
> 7. Re: opinions on peerage (Jim/Mathias)
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Message: 1
> Date: Mon, 2 May 2011 08:07:05 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Charles Sprouse <sprousecp at yahoo.com>
> To: "atlantia at atlantia.sca.org" <atlantia at atlantia.sca.org>,
> "Logan at ebonwoulfe.com" <Logan at ebonwoulfe.com>
> Subject: Re: [MR] opinions on peerage
> Message-ID: <487905.66814.qm at web45814.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> 
> If you would take note, I said PERIOD examples, and mentioned other forms of martial combat specifically, not musicianship. There ARE period examples to which I was referring. Choosing to ignore them is petty blindness. And belittling my opinion with flippant Elton John comments not only goes against the purpose of this list, but should be beneath someone of your status in the society.
> 
> Sent from Yahoo! Mail on Android
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 2
> Date: Mon, 2 May 2011 08:14:26 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Rorik smior <roriktheviking at yahoo.com>
> To: atlantia at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org
> Subject: Re: [MR] opinion on peerage...
> Message-ID: <124116.36755.qm at web33702.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
> 
> Some who are leaders in specific areas of the SCA have never been selected for an Order even though the guidelines for the order are overwhelmingly clear that the person should be in the order yet are not even though they have been nominated. Yet, in the same Order there are those who have done minimal effort or participation and I find little evidence of them deserving of being inducted into the Order.
> 
> Some comments given on this thread give the opinion that the Peerage (a minority few) feel they are equal to Crown. This is not how I perceived the Society to be based on. My 'Opinion on Peerage' continues to lower. I give respect where earned not just because someone has been playing for 20yrs. I support Their Royal Majesties in their efforts to maintain a Fair climate in the game rather than a political arena.
> 
> Rorik smi?r
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 3
> Date: Mon, 2 May 2011 08:25:47 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Alexandria Stratton <kyrilex at yahoo.com>
> To: atlantia at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org
> Subject: Re: [MR] opinion on peerage...
> Message-ID: <692388.98888.qm at web39503.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> 
> I am just wondering whether it's an absolute necessity, as it seems to be, to 
> play the politics in order to be recognized. I have a very dear friend who' been 
> a superb woodcarver for the last 30 years, teaching, doing everything one would 
> expect a laurel to do and beyond...it would appear that if she was willing to 
> 'put on elizabethan garb and hob-nob with the right people', she would have been 
> a laurel decades ago. However, she (and other similiar folks I've known over the 
> years) dances to the beat of her own drum and cares not for the drama...if we 
> were in Tudor England, one would say that we do not care for 'life at court'.
> 
> 
> -- Isabelle LaFar
> http://www.HouseBarra.com
> Experience is what you get, when things go awry.
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 4
> Date: Mon, 2 May 2011 11:41:15 -0400
> From: ldmolly at md.metrocast.net
> To: <atlantia at atlantia.sca.org>
> Subject: Re: [MR] opinion on peerage...
> Message-ID: <4948.1304350875 at md.metrocast.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> 
> If the good gentles of the tavern will tolerate just one more voice added to this discussion, I'd like to offer my thoughts on this matter. 
> 
> Peers are recognized at the will of the crown. Period. In my experience (limited though it is), Crowns regularly seek the guidance and council of their Peers when considering a new member for inclusion in their order. They do not seek (or need) permission to make a Peer, yet I have never met a set of monarchs who would entirely discount the council of their Peers. On the contrary, most seem to truly consider the feedback and counsel offered. 
> 
> But the journey to a Peerage starts far before the discussion in Council. It starts in the small shires and local meetings. It then grows to include a wider audience who sees the value of a "should be" Pelican, the skill of a "should be" Laurel or the prowess of a "should be" Knight. If someone is not being recognized, there are a number of reasons why. Often, it can boil down to just not knowing the candidate. So...if there's someone you want discussed...write about them (a lot!) and send your letter to the Peerage or Order principles listed here: http://acorn.atlantia.sca.org/orders.php. 
> 
> Even if that person is still developing, Peers like to be able to follow the progress of those who will someday join us, to support those who share our passions and to even learn from others as new ideas/techniques are developed. And don't stop with only writing to the Peerage & Order principles...look around you and see who is working, training or otherwise making Atlantia a better place. Few monarchs have ever complained of getting TOO MANY award recommendations, smile.
> 
> Finally, as a point of interest (and to give some perspective), Peers are not just "Peers of Atlantia"...they are recognized for their rank Society-wide. So a great deal of thought and consideration is given (at least on my end) before making a recommendation to their Majesties for considering someone for elevation to my Order. I assume (not knowing the minds of each King and Queen) that the same consideration is made before offering an accolade to a candidate. Ultimately, I want a Peer of Atlantia to be _my_ peer, someone I can be proud to stand beside and to call Atlantian. 
> 
> Is the bar high? Yep...you betcha. Is the system perfect? Not by a long shot. But I know for a fact that the goal of Peerage is reachable because I am now standing on the other side of that goal. I find I have been forced to re-examine many of my assumptions about the Peerages (and about Peers themselves). Nothing like wearing the shoe on the other foot and all that, smile.
> 
> Thank you for allowing me to chime into this discussion. 
> 
> Molly
> (Mary Isabel of Heatherstone, OL) 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 5
> Date: Mon, 02 May 2011 11:45:02 -0400
> From: Maymunah al Siqilliyah <alsiqilliyah at gmail.com>
> To: atlantia at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org
> Subject: Re: [MR] opinion on peerage...
> Message-ID: <4DBED17E.9070809 at gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
> 
> I remember when people told me I would never get a laurel if I did 
> Middle Eastern, especially not in Atlantia. Another theory blown all to 
> hell. Now there are several of us.
> 
> On 5/2/2011 11:25 AM, Alexandria Stratton wrote:
> > I am just wondering whether it's an absolute necessity, as it seems to be, to
> > play the politics in order to be recognized. I have a very dear friend who' been
> > a superb woodcarver for the last 30 years, teaching, doing everything one would
> > expect a laurel to do and beyond...it would appear that if she was willing to
> > 'put on elizabethan garb and hob-nob with the right people', she would have been
> > a laurel decades ago. However, she (and other similiar folks I've known over the
> > years) dances to the beat of her own drum and cares not for the drama...if we
> > were in Tudor England, one would say that we do not care for 'life at court'.
> >
> >
> > -- Isabelle LaFar
> > http://www.HouseBarra.com
> > Experience is what you get, when things go awry.
> > ========================================================================
> > The Merry Rose Tavern at Cheapside
> > List Info: http://merryrose.atlantia.sca.org/
> > Submissions: Atlantia at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org
> > Subscriptions: http://seahorse.atlantia.sca.org/listinfo.cgi/atlantia-atlantia.sca.org
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 6
> Date: Mon, 2 May 2011 09:10:42 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Bonnie Davis <bonniwort at yahoo.com>
> To: atlantia at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org
> Subject: [MR] Awards to those in small groups...
> Message-ID: <135159.37332.qm at web120206.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
> 
> Greetings to the list,
> ?
> I was having just this conversation with a peer the other day, that it can be difficult for those from smaller groups to receive recognition for their service/art/etc. She made a few practical points that may be pertinent:
> ?
> 1. That the apprentice/laurel, protege/pelican and squire/knight relationships are intended to (in part) provide other members of their orders info about the doings/worthiness of their minions.
> ?
> 2. Should this relationship not be present, it?pretty much?falls to the person involved to "get their stuff/name, etc." out there into general knowledge. If Lady Awesomestuff isn't traveling to outside group and kingdom events and?displaying said awesome stuff, she is not?as likely to be recognized for it.
> ?
> 3. (This is mine) Most gentles publicly say that they do their (whatever) because they love to do it. Hopefully that is the greatest reward. But I do agree, it's nice to get a shiny thing from time to time.
> ?
> I hope this helps, and offends few.
> ?
> Lady Martine Picot
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 7
> Date: Mon, 2 May 2011 12:20:16 -0400
> From: "Jim/Mathias" <jsfrodo at gmail.com>
> To: "atlantia at atlantia.sca.org" <atlantia at atlantia.sca.org>
> Subject: Re: [MR] opinions on peerage
> Message-ID: <BANLkTincE0qXsH9vLEyphDi9kWAYdFSWrw at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
> 
> >From Duke Logan:
> [quote] sure. elton john is a knight and i dont think he has any prior military
> service. but that not relevant in the sca. sca knights are just that,
> knights of the society. the requirements for induction into that order
> include chivalric combat. nobody is refusing to acknowledge any "real life
> period examples" regarding induction into our order.[/endquote]
> 
> Lord Karl wasn't discussing Elton John, he specifically said:
> "real-life period examples of people getting knighted who had never
> suited up in armor". If you need an example, how about Sir Francis
> Drake? He was knighted in 1582 (within our period) for his service to
> the crown as an explorer, ship captain and privateer. I don't know
> how familiar Your Grace is with maritime combat in period, but heavy
> armor wasn't part of the equation, because swimming in armor is a
> really bad idea. Secondly, I've checked the Atlantian Books of Law
> and Policy and can find no definition of the Order of Chivalry, which
> leaves me with what's recorded on the Order of Precedence, which
> defines the Order of Chivalry as "One becomes a member of the Chivalry
> through martial prowess on the field." This says absolutely nothing
> about what type of combat you're practicing, it simply refers to being
> good at combat. Can you show me a reference that defines "chivalric"
> combat as taking place only with heavy armor and rattan weapons?
> 
> >From Her Majesty:
> [quote] the Society mandated and tradition grounded basis of the
> order. The order of Chivalry in the SCA was created for and about
> heavy fighting.[endquote]
> 
> Your Majesty, I've seen nothing in Society documents that even defines
> the Peerage Orders, let alone mandates anything about them. As far as
> tradition goes, when the Order of Chivalry started, heavy fighting was
> the only kind of fighting in existence in the Society, so naturally
> that's what people associate with knighthood. However, that has
> changed, but the peerage-level recognition has not. There are some
> that point to the Order of the Laurel as the proper place for
> recognition of other martial activities, but (again from the Atlantian
> OP), "One becomes a Laurel through excellence in the arts and
> sciences." Skill with a rapier or a bow simply does not fit that
> description. And moreover, the simple fact is that the Order of the
> Laurel is NOT recognizing fencers or archers.
> 
> You suggest looking at "the many ways we have of recognizing those
> contributions." Yes, the kingdom has many ways of recognizing folks,
> but there aren't equal levels of recognition. The problem is that
> while there is a route to a peerage for almost anything else in the
> Society, there is none for martial activities other than heavy combat.
> It's difficult for someone in one of the several neglected
> disciplines not to get discouraged and possibly bitter when they see
> those of great skill in their discipline, those who have served the
> kingdom well at events and wars, being overlooked for EQUAL
> recognition simply because they don't swing a piece of rattan.
> 
> There was an old joke when I was in the Navy, "200 years of tradition
> totally unhampered by progress", a joke that was all too often founded
> in reality when the Navy as an organization refused to accept new
> ideas because "that's the way it's always been done". Blindly holding
> on to tradition and refusing to acknowledge that the world has
> changed, including the Known Worlde, and thereby refusing to recognize
> the skills and service of some people, is certainly not in keeping
> with the ideal of honor that the Society has set for itself.
> 
> Yours in Service,
> Lord Mathias von Oldenburg
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
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> End of Atlantia Digest, Vol 100, Issue 5
> ****************************************