[MR] opinions on peerage

[Logan]

swimming in armour is fun!

well, fun to watch someone else do it.  ;^)

yes i am familiar with drake and many others who received a knighthood for
their service.  however, thats not how the sca does it.  the only service
that the sca order of the chivalry recognizes is chivalric combat (coupled
with their service to community which encompasses all other things).  in
"period" kings were not decided by single combat tourneys either.  in the
sca they are.  

regards
logan

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-----Original Message-----
From: atlantia-bounces at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org
[mailto:atlantia-bounces at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org] On Behalf Of Jim/Mathias
Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 12:20 PM
To: atlantia at atlantia.sca.org
Subject: Re: [MR] opinions on peerage

>From Duke Logan:
[quote] sure.  elton john is a knight and i dont think he has any prior
military service.  but that not relevant in the sca.  sca knights are just
that, knights of the society.  the requirements for induction into that
order include chivalric combat.  nobody is refusing to acknowledge any "real
life period examples" regarding induction into our order.[/endquote]

Lord Karl wasn't discussing Elton John, he specifically said:
"real-life period examples of people getting knighted who had never suited
up in armor".  If you need an example, how about Sir Francis Drake?  He was
knighted in 1582 (within our period) for his service to the crown as an
explorer, ship captain and privateer.  I don't know how familiar Your Grace
is with maritime combat in period, but heavy armor wasn't part of the
equation, because swimming in armor is a really bad idea.  Secondly, I've
checked the Atlantian Books  of Law and Policy and can find no definition of
the Order of Chivalry, which leaves me with what's recorded on the Order of
Precedence, which defines the Order of Chivalry as "One becomes a member of
the Chivalry through martial prowess on the field."  This says absolutely
nothing about what type of combat you're practicing, it simply refers to
being good at combat.  Can you show me a reference that defines "chivalric"
combat as taking place only with heavy armor and rattan weapons?

>From Her Majesty:
[quote] the Society mandated and tradition grounded basis of the order.  The
order of Chivalry in the SCA was created for and about heavy
fighting.[endquote]

Your Majesty, I've seen nothing in Society documents that even defines the
Peerage Orders, let alone mandates anything about them.  As far as tradition
goes, when the Order of Chivalry started, heavy fighting was the only kind
of fighting in existence in the Society, so naturally that's what people
associate with knighthood.  However, that has changed, but the peerage-level
recognition has not.  There are some that point to the Order of the Laurel
as the proper place for recognition of other martial activities, but (again
from the Atlantian OP), "One becomes a Laurel through excellence in the arts
and sciences."  Skill with a rapier or a bow simply does not fit that
description.  And moreover, the simple fact is that the Order of the Laurel
is NOT recognizing fencers or archers.

You suggest looking at "the many ways we have of recognizing those
contributions." Yes, the kingdom has many ways of recognizing folks, but
there aren't equal levels of recognition.  The problem is that while there
is a route to a peerage for almost anything else in the Society, there is
none for martial activities other than heavy combat.
 It's difficult for someone in one of the several neglected disciplines not
to get discouraged and possibly bitter when they see those of great skill in
their discipline, those who have served the kingdom well at events and wars,
being overlooked for EQUAL recognition simply because they don't swing a
piece of rattan.

There was an old joke when I was in the Navy, "200 years of tradition
totally unhampered by progress", a joke that was all too often founded in
reality when the Navy as an organization refused to accept new ideas because
"that's the way it's always been done".  Blindly holding on to tradition and
refusing to acknowledge that the world has changed, including the Known
Worlde, and thereby refusing to recognize the skills and service of some
people, is certainly not in keeping with the ideal of honor that the Society
has set for itself.

Yours in Service,
Lord Mathias von Oldenburg
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