[MR] Atlantia Digest, Vol 102, Issue 55
Jessica Fitzgerald
guiendolyn at yahoo.com
Tue Jul 26 09:25:32 PDT 2011
Elvira,
I wish I knew. For me, I live in costal nc, and nothing is close. 150 is the cost of the entire endeavor, NOT with hotel costs. The point is NOT that the event costs are too much, the point is that the total costs are too much to do often. I was speaking to why people choose to do other things instead of Sca events.
I think the answer for this economy is either more day events that are cheap cheap cheap (like the back yard events or glorified regional practices that have been becoming more prevalent) or alternatively fewer events in general, but longer when they happen. Like WOW. It's just an idea, please no one fly off the handle at me. Thanks!
YIS,
THLady Gwendolyn Tremayne
Sent from my iPhone
On Jul 26, 2011, at 11:58, atlantia-request at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org wrote:
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> Today's Topics:
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> 1. Local shire Annoucement -- RE: Atlantia Digest, Vol 102,
> Issue 54 (Rick Allison)
> 2. Ugliness and newcomers (Jessica Fitzgerald)
> 3. FW: SCA Census.. (Aedan Aylwyn)
> 4. Larping and other societies (Jessica Fitzgerald)
> 5. Re: Ugliness and newcomers (Elvira Pedrosa)
> 6. Re: census conclusions (Maire O'Halowrane)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2011 10:30:26 -0400
> From: Rick Allison <threeallisons at hotmail.com>
> To: Merry Rose <atlantia at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org>
> Subject: [MR] Local shire Annoucement -- RE: Atlantia Digest, Vol 102,
> Issue 54
> Message-ID: <BAY164-w5909C5DF96994562FB57E5A8320 at phx.gbl>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
>
> hello one and all,
> we have armored practice at my home on wednesdays at 7:30 pm
> these are focused new fighter and technique practices with some full armor sparring,
> Pell work, slow work, foot and 1/4 speed drills
>
> No armor or weapon required for first few weeks,
> meet at
>
> 6630 Sundown Road
> Laytonsville MD 20882
>
> 7:30pm
>
> Laird Seanne Alansyn, incipiant Knight Marshal Roxburymill
> aka, Rich Allison
> threeallisons at hotmail.com
> Cell 240/463-3956
> Please consider the environment before printing this email
> Per bend argent and azure, a sinister hand and a Maltese cross counterchanged.
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2011 11:03:14 -0400
> From: Jessica Fitzgerald <guiendolyn at yahoo.com>
> To: "atlantia at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org"
> <atlantia at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org>
> Subject: [MR] Ugliness and newcomers
> Message-ID: <7C191B60-3227-4650-8DED-8D29C2F7D3AC at yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> Greetings All!
>
> I confess, I don't read the merry rose like I should and I had no idea what ugliness was going around until today. Having read some of the comments, I'm sad to say I'm not surprised. My first event was atlantian 10 year/emerald joust. I grew up in the Sca and I'm only currently 26. I'm part of this group everyone is debating. The Sca IS too expensive. For my husband, my toddler and I to go to a weekend event it never costs less that $150, and we don't even have to pay site fees or feast for our little one. It is much easier to rent a movie or buy a video game, and cheaper too.
>
> Also, As I have grown up the Sca has fallen in love with itself and as a result has become pretentious and condescending to those who are starting out. We make much of pomp and circumstance and then we break our own rules. Most people walk around with plastic water bottles, soda cans and cell phones, and smoke cigarettes while they lean against the cars that they think are too important to have to put away. Old Sca expects new Sca to do what they say, not what they do and to jump when they say jump. Gone are the days when one went to an event to have a good time with their friends. Now everyone has to work the whole time and it's no fun for anyone. I know someone who is quitting the Sca after being a member for 14 years because he will no longer stand for being yelled at by those who think they're better than everyone else when he was only doing what he was told in the first place.
>
> If you mix high cost with bad experiences and nasty attitudes, why in the world would our new people want to stay?
>
> All of that said, I love the Sca and everyone in it. I want this organization to survive as much or more than anyone else because I really can't imagine life without it. We need to lighten up and as another good gentle said to cut back on costs somehow or our beloved society will dwindle into nothingness. If we don't welcome newcomers or even each other, how can we expect to survive as a society?
>
> THLady Gwendolyn Tremayne
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2011 11:07:53 -0400
> From: "Aedan Aylwyn" <aedan at mindspring.com>
> To: <atlantia at atlantia.sca.org>
> Subject: [MR] FW: SCA Census..
> Message-ID: <000d01cc4ba5$cbbc15d0$63344170$@com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Oops, meant to send this out to everyone...
>
> Aedan
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Aedan Aylwyn [mailto:aedan at mindspring.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2011 11:07 AM
> To: 'sigrune at aol.com'
> Subject: RE: [MR] SCA Census..
>
> I think it starts with the assumption that the survey somehow represents a
> fair cross section of people that play in the SCA. I think this is very
> false and can lead a reader into pulling false conclusions from it.
>
> The survey represents those that were interested enough to take the survey.
> Personally, I got part way through it and gave up as it was far too long and
> I felt it was not worth my time.
>
> So *my* guess is that the reason you find the high proportion of folks with
> long time experience in the SCA on the survey is that those were the people
> motivated enough to slog their way through the survey.
>
> As simple as that...
>
> Aedan
>
> PS I still think it has a lot of valuable information in it, but not to the
> point of analyzing the importance of 3% here versus 5% there. Look at the
> big picture results and stick with that.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: atlantia-bounces at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org
> [mailto:atlantia-bounces at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org] On Behalf Of
> sigrune at aol.com
> Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2011 10:26 AM
> To: atlantia at atlantia.sca.org
> Subject: Re: [MR] SCA Census..
>
> To all, involved or monitoring this discussion I would like to
> contribute my own opinions on the matter and make observations of fact
> as appropriate.
>
> Observation: Some people pointed to the released data and stated
> membership/participation is down. Some have pointed to the released
> data and said membership/participation is stable or up. How can this
> both be true? I am seriously baffled by this.
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2011 11:26:37 -0400
> From: Jessica Fitzgerald <guiendolyn at yahoo.com>
> To: "atlantia at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org"
> <atlantia at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org>
> Subject: [MR] Larping and other societies
> Message-ID: <51D6FC49-9A70-4924-B9DA-A938E9152C2F at yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> Greetings all!
>
> One more thing while I'm on a roll. When I was a child and growing up in the Sca, people made an attempt at character and role play. Now I think I may know 5 people in our kingdom that do, and that estimate is probably over-generous. What happened? People used to recognize the fact that this is a game and is supposed to be fun, and above all not real. At the end of the day the king and queen were people, Normal ones with normal jobs and normal lives. Aka, no better than anyone else. Now I feel like Jessica in a Gwendolyn suit, not Gwendolyn in truth. That is my own failing, but I'm not alone by a long shot.
>
> When someone larps they don another persona and speak, act, talk and everything else differently. For that evening they ARE an elf or a vampire or what have you. Too much these days are we now ourselves in funny clothing.
>
> I say let's make it a game again. Let's realize and remember that it is NOT REAL. No one here is related to queen Elizabeth, and it's time we remembered that. Let's be silly, let's talk forsoothly! When I was growing up there were plague rats and games and themes! Let's do it again!
>
> Thanks for reading!
>
> YIS,
> THLady Gwendolyn Tremayne
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2011 11:38:02 -0400
> From: Elvira Pedrosa <donya.elvira at gmail.com>
> To: "atlantia at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org"
> <atlantia at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org>
> Subject: Re: [MR] Ugliness and newcomers
> Message-ID:
> <CAC+Am83P56JJnZX00u97mejxhnPQLNt_TGJO7ruakk7g_SbS_w at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> On Tue, Jul 26, 2011 at 11:03 AM, Jessica Fitzgerald
> <guiendolyn at yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Greetings All!
>>
>> I confess, I don't read the merry rose like I should and I had no idea what ugliness was going around until today. Having read some of the comments, I'm sad to say I'm not surprised. My first event was atlantian 10 year/emerald joust. I grew up in the Sca and I'm only currently 26. I'm part of this group everyone is debating. The Sca IS too expensive. For my husband, my toddler and I to go to a weekend event it never costs less that $150, and we don't even have to pay site fees or feast for our little one. It is much easier to rent a movie or buy a video game, and cheaper too.
>>
>
>
> What part of the expenses of the SCA do believe are something others
> can trim? Many of the expenses related to your kite are directly in
> your control. From what I understand much of the heavy kit can be made
> with small financial investment and sweat labor. Not a lot of rapier
> gear is something you can make, but you can make your own gorget,
> hood, and jacket
>
> I am not sure how you get $150 for a nearby weekend event for 2 plus a
> toddler. Even with feast on a upper priced event I think the price
> would be closer to $75 plus gas. You can easily cut out all of the
> extra food costs by bringing from home. The groups I have been
> directly involved with have very slim margins, between the costs of
> the site, toilets, and other basic expenses they are not making much
> profit from the events. Some events routinely lose money.
>
> Costs are something we need to look into, but many of the costs are
> the choice of the attendee. How do we as an organization help people
> cut expenses that are not directly in the control of the event hosts?
>
> Elvira Pedrosa
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2011 11:58:25 -0400
> From: "Maire O'Halowrane" <maire_ohalowrane at mackermakkeep.com>
> To: <atlantia at atlantia.sca.org>
> Subject: Re: [MR] census conclusions
> Message-ID: <sig.9188110922.37376973E2F94BC0BF7CBA702737BBCE at mystique>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
> reply-type=original
>
> I believe he meant the KNIGHT who was trying to force a NEWCOMER to bow to
> you has been in longer than you.
>
> Maire
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Logan" <Logan at ebonwoulfe.com>
> To: <atlantia at atlantia.sca.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2011 9:08 AM
> Subject: Re: [MR] census conclusions
>
>
>> im confused. if this person has been in the sca longer than me and is
>> well
>> aware of sca customs why did they refuse to show the respect which is
>> expected in the society they choose to engage in? perhaps, since you say
>> it
>> was me, they felt i had done them some injustice. if so then i can
>> understand them refusing to bow and, to be honest, thats not really that
>> big
>> of a deal (the bowing part). and sure, the knight that "laid hands" on
>> your
>> man may indeed have gone too far. i dont know.
>>
>> im not sure what me not wearing some tabard has to do with the overall
>> picture of the world but that was 20 years ago. im sorry it bothers you
>> to
>> this day. also the idea that a helm costs $500 or more is inaccurate.
>> armour today is much easier to come by than it was 10 years ago. when i
>> started i had to make my first suit of armour and it was terrible. today
>> there are dozens of armourers that offer acceptable helms for under $200
>> and
>> i have personally armoured folks up with complete kits for under $300.
>> its
>> important to find these resources if new folks shy away from fighting
>> because they are told the costs are so high. if you need help getting new
>> folks armoured for that amount please let me know.
>>
>> events do cost way too much on average. some of this is due to site fees
>> but those sites arent the only option. day trip events in a field can be
>> just as much fun as weekend long events at a campsite. the economy is in
>> the dumps so we do need to look at finding some ways to cut back.
>>
>> i really think we are not seeing growth from the younger crowd because
>> there
>> are simply too many easy distractions out there. kids today are raised a
>> bit differently than when i was a kid. they rarely play outside. they
>> rarely are pushed into competition (heck there is even this false
>> competition called "upwards" sports). most kids i see are walking with
>> their heads down and glued to a 4" screen of some handheld video game, the
>> older ones replace that with a phone they are texting on. i dont think we
>> will ever be able to compete with this. a big part, like you said, is
>> cost.
>> a working parent can give their kid a $30 video game and let them
>> entertain
>> themself for hours. thats a lot cheaper, and easier, than getting garb
>> together along with accoutrements and drive out to an event.
>>
>> your question is spot on. are we being good ambassadors to the sca. i
>> know
>> that i havent done a good job in seeking out new faces at events over the
>> years. i felt what being on the other end of that is like at my first few
>> events in trimaris when the only folks that came to talk with me were
>> folks
>> ive known for years and other peers who knew me or knew of me. most folks
>> just walked by with a little wave or a smile. friendly enough but looking
>> at it as a newcomer (to the kingdom) i would not have been drawn in. i
>> think if we are to be good ambassadors we should all consider those new
>> faces as our guests and make sure they are without need. if just two
>> people
>> stopped by and asked a new face how they were doing and introduced
>> themselves i think the overall society would feel much more welcoming to
>> new
>> people.
>>
>> regards
>> logan
>>
>> "I never did give them hell. I just told the truth, and they thought it
>> was
>> hell."
>> Harry S Truman
>> "If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his
>> vengeance need not be feared"
>> Niccolo Machiavelli
>> For your SCA combat needs please visit:
>> www.ebonwoulfe.com/armory.htm
>>
>> www.ebonwoulfe.com
>>
>> For worldwide listings of fighter practices please visit:
>> www.fighterpractice.com
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: atlantia-bounces at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org
>> [mailto:atlantia-bounces at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org] On Behalf Of Beau
>> Meredith
>> Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2011 5:10 AM
>> To: atlantia at atlantia.sca.org
>> Subject: Re: [MR] census conclusions
>>
>> Your grace,
>>
>> You were in fact the king I mentioned. I never said anyone was thrown
>> to
>> the ground. However one of your knights laid hands apon my man and
>> attempted
>> to bend him over to bow to you.This person has been in longer than you and
>> is well aware of SCA custom. I remember when you would not even where the
>> colors of the barony of which you were the champion of. So it did in fact
>> happen and I have no reason to lie or exaggerate, therefore I do not
>> appreciate the inference that this is a made up claim. The incident is
>> long
>> past and was only used to illustrate a point. The point being that the
>> attitude of the leadership has deteriorated over the years, this is one of
>> the main problems with retention of new members. A gain of 7000 members
>> does
>> in no way mean growth when we lose 24,000 out the back door during the
>> same
>> period. The survey is not a complete picture as it only measures those
>> that
>> responded. The paid membership numbers have hovered around 30,000 for
>> over
>> 20 years. Look at the graph showing time in the SCA the largest percentage
>> 19% have been in for 20-29 years. If we were growing this would not be the
>> largest category, it would be the smallest percentage. There are many
>> reasons for slow or declining numbers. At the present the lack of a
>> healthy
>> economy is our biggest problem. The younger generation is gravitating to
>> larp and other such groups I believe it is largely due to the high cost of
>> SCA participation. In the early days armour standards were lower and one
>> could effectively build out a suit in ones garage with a little guidance.
>> With Helms running 500-900 and up most younger people have a hard time
>> coming up with that kind of cash. However as I said we can do little about
>> the economy and nothing about people choosing between school, work and the
>> SCA. What we can do is look at the reasons cited by those who have left
>> and
>> see where we can improve apon the product delivered in the case the SCA.
>> There are currently around 3-400 people in the charlotte area alone
>> participating in SCA like activities including a spin off group. there are
>> currently around 4 heavy fighters in the SCA that do any regular fighting.
>> These numbers tell me that we are missing our opportunity to recruit these
>> people into the SCA and that there is a fundamental flaw in our approach
>> to
>> recruitment. Also the numbers of disaffected members regardless of the
>> reasons cited is another core issue with the society as a whole and is not
>> limited to Atlantia alone. The fact remains that the culture of the
>> society
>> needs to change or it will slowly die without new blood. So I will repeat
>> my
>> closing statement for you to consider,at your nexy eent ask yourself "Am I
>> being a good Ambassador for the SCA?".
>> Beau
>> ========================================================================
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>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> ========================================================================
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> End of Atlantia Digest, Vol 102, Issue 55
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