[MR] Judging: the Brewers

Mon Dec 5 11:01:32 PST 2011

The Brewers of Atlantia have a couple of practices that seem to work.  We try to always have three judges, one of which fills out the judging form and notes everyone's comments.  We encourage entrants to be present so they can hear the comments; sometimes we have technical questions for the brewer that affect the outcome.  We have our own judging form and a rubric that goes with it - so many points for a product that has these qualities, so many fewer points if this flaw is present, that kind of thing.  Our forms need work - they'll probably never be perfect - but the rubric does help to "calibrate" the judging.  

When I'm judging, I always bring the modern "bible" of beer and mead judging along, so we can be reminded what characteristics to look for in a particular style.  Documentation and period authenticity are two more categories worth, I think, 10 points each.  There is a separate category - 
worth 10 or 15 points on a 100 point scale - at the very end, where we 
ask ourselves, would you like to have another glass of this?  That one category 
is completely, admittedly subjective.  

Our answer to non-competition events are roundtables, where people bring their brews and everyone participating tastes and gives feedback.  We try to "salt" those with a few known, experienced brewers.  It's wonderful to see who-all shows up, from new brewers trying things for the first time to extremely experienced brewers I might not've met yet.  It leads to style discussions, period source conversations, and all manner of useful information.

I hope this is helpful to you - 

Baroness Sorcha of Storvik

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 From: "atlantia-request at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org" <atlantia-request at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org>
To: atlantia at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org 
Sent: Saturday, December 3, 2011 8:29 PM
Subject: Atlantia Digest, Vol 107, Issue 10

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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: A&S issue (Janina Krakowska)
   2. Re: A&S issue (Amerie Helton)
   3. Re: A&S issue (Amerie Helton)
   4. Kingdom Roster of Artisans (snspies at aol.com)
   5. Re: Congratulations to the Barony of Black Diamond! (Adina)
   6. Congratulations to the Barony of Windmaster's Hill! (Adina)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2011 19:56:02 -0500
From: Janina Krakowska <janina.krakowska at gmail.com>
To: Atlantia at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org
Subject: Re: [MR] A&S issue
Message-ID:
    <CAHPb5cxDEWLNZ6R6Yufp2oO7AB41U1G-QQ_v=Lf0SWUKHnuwfg at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

I have judged (and been judged) many times.  I admit that I am very
uncomfortable with the numeric scales, as I have difficulty deciding the
fine differences. But the written comments? Oh no problem. I usually have
to ask for additional paper if it is an area that I am knowledgeable ad
possibly skilled in because the little square is too small.  I will leave
extensive notes with my name, and contact information with offers to lend
my library if the entrant is in embroidery.  But I do not recall anyone
contacting me later. This makes me sad as I really would love to share my
neat stuff.

But the problem arises when there are too few judges available and I am
asked to judge something that I am unfamiliar with.  This is where the
documentation really comes in handy.  This is where I can learn about the
art, what it is supposed to be ad how it is supposed to be done.  I usually
can identify fine workmanship in general, but is your technique similar to
period or did you have to use an alternate because of outside needs.  Your
docs can answer this for me and hep me out. Please tell me why your entry
is so incredibly spiffy!  The surface problem with the standard judging
sheet is the requirement that no documentation automatically gets a zero.
That is not a slam - just a fact of life.  If docs are optional, then if
someone goes the extra yard and brings some, then shouldn't they get a
little extra credit?

I have felt poorly after being judging in my 35 year career in the SCA.
Looking back, it was usually just the truth and I had left out some really
important information that would have been taken into consideration if the
judges knew.  Very occasionally the judge was talking through their hat.
If I know a new artist, I work on educating them in the ways of the A&S
environment and have been known to 'X' out an entire column and tell them
to ignore those comments.

This will always be a difficult subject. People put a lot of effort and
themselves into their projects. It is very hard to separate criticism of
the item from criticism of themselves.  I know that I have had this problem
- my work is a reflection of me.  I am unaware of any judge who
intentionally wants to hurt anyone.  Maybe the wording comes across wrong
and that is a sad thing.  Please talk to the judge - email if needed (since
finding someone late in an event can be a real trick). I don't now anyone
who doesn't want to talk your ear off about something they are passionate
about, and we hope the judges are passionate.

Just my long winded thoughts as I have read through all of the comments.

In Service to Atlantia

Janina Krakowska
Companion of the Pearl

------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2011 20:00:19 -0500
From: Amerie Helton <ameriehelton at bellsouth.net>
To: Merry Rose <atlantia at atlantia.sca.org>
Subject: Re: [MR] A&S issue
Message-ID: <98645B08-E68B-4ACE-ABBC-525DE8A3304A at bellsouth.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed

I think this is a great way to judge. I love talking to the  
participant when judging. I also think the St. Catherine's method was  
excellent (that's the one where you get three judges attention for an  
hour. I might have called it the wrong thing) The KASF pentathlon is  
also done face to face, and I really liked that as a participant.

Dervila

On Dec 3, 2011, at 8:14 AM, Jim Springle wrote:

> Though I rarely comment on things I read on the MR I feel somewhat  
> compelled to say something on this one...
>
> I had gone to an A&S competition at an event where the judges were  
> given beads/tokens of some sort. It was a themed event as I recall,  
> and documentation was "optional". In front of each entrant's piece  
> there was a small bowl. The judges were told *yes told* to put  
> their beads into the bowls of who they thought was the best entry  
> in the competition. No forms were layed out to for the judges to  
> make comments. The one with the most tokens won the competition. Of  
> course the person in charge had to watch over the competition like  
> a hawk to prevent one person taking a token from one bowl and  
> placing it into another bowl, but that should be minimal effort.
>
> The comments were saved until *after* the competition was over and  
> done *face-en-face* (face to face) if there were any. Would this  
> kind of practice reduce or eliminate the hurt feelings if this kind  
> of judging system were widely used?
>
> Just my 2 cents,
> Tankred Bras-de-Fer
> Green Shark Persuivant Herald

------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2011 20:01:01 -0500
From: Amerie Helton <ameriehelton at bellsouth.net>
To: Merry Rose <atlantia at atlantia.sca.org>
Subject: Re: [MR] A&S issue
Message-ID: <6CA4944F-A7DB-4483-9416-C88E603CC38D at bellsouth.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed

Ghaltai - Greetings

My wife drew my attention to your posting about not receiving either  
judgement or comment on work of both high quality and deep  
authenticity. I am sorry to see another person in this situation.

Several years ago I took a complex project to Kingdom A&S. I was  
extremely put out by the level of critique available to me. Most of  
the comments were "That's great" or "How long did it take?". Comments  
of this caliber are what I expect when I take it to demos, from the  
general public, not from Peers of the Knowne World.

I have not resolved this problem, but I do have an approach which  
may, in time, produce a more broadly educated corps of judges. Be  
Amazing with your documentation, provide side bar articles where  
germane and possible. Post articles or links to as many lists as you  
can, such as the Florilegeum. *Communicate*.

This is my approach, and if it spreads it may do some good.

In hope of better service, I remain,
Lord Tom Drumbuilder

On Dec 2, 2011, at 10:41 PM, Phillip Jones wrote:

> When I submit a project to be judged, I expect to be judged. You  
> can imagine my dismay to return to the A&S table to find zero  
> comments on my sheet. After the second event with no comments on  
> multiple entries, I figured I was casting pearls before swine,  
> particularly with my woodwork.
>
> I'd still  enter projects had I received -any- feedback. I don't  
> expect a judge to sugar-coat, but I do expect them to comment. I've  
> incorporated more period technique into my woodworking, hand- 
> cutting dovetails or finger joints, making and using hide glue, but  
> I'm doing it for me, because I enjoy the process of building. No  
> one expects cooks to use period stoves.
>
> I too don't expect to be a peer; I feel no paths are open to me. I  
> can't do heavy combat, I've traveled at my own expense to every  
> kingdom in North America to teach diverse topics, typically three  
> or more classes, and frankly think that my service to the entire  
> SCA had long ago risen way above any reasonable rubric. You cannot  
> walk onto any field of combat and not see a product I helped guide  
> through development to sale. I don't need a stamp for my ego; I  
> know who I am and what I've done. I'll come out and play, but  
> because I think it is fun, and not for another merit badge.
>
> I don't hang out with any 'peers' who don't treat me as an equal,  
> and consider many to be close friends. Not being a peer doesn't  
> bother me much, I'd rather put my energy into helping someone learn  
> to fight, or freeing up my comrades from supervisory roles so that  
> they can go do things I'm no longer able to do. Coming to this  
> place of apathy brought me peace of mind.
>
>
> ghaltai  (ash tie)
>
>

------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2011 20:23:23 -0500 (EST)
From: snspies at aol.com
To: atlantia at atlantia.sca.org
Subject: [MR] Kingdom Roster of Artisans
Message-ID: <8CE803A73341D36-1F50-1E185 at webmail-d010.sysops.aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Once again, I would like to draw everyone's attention, especially those people involved in obtaining judges for A & S competitions, to the Roster of Artisans that can be found on the kingdom web site under Arts and Sciences.  Almost everyone on that list at one time indicated that they would be willing to judge and the specific areas in which they felt competent to judge.  The intent of this roster was to make knowledgeable judges available.  If this resource is not being used, and if folks are still being caught at events as emergency judges, then some of the problem may be simply that those judging do not have the qualifications I would expect in a judge.  

There are surely enough active laurels and pearls in this kingdom to provide a wide variety of qualified judges at A & S competitions.  I strongly believe that that is a major "duty" of members of those orders.  

Leaving no comment is, yes, unacceptable.  

The onus of arranging competent judges for any competition is on the organizer or sponsor of that competition.  They are also responsible for giving the judges instructions on how to judge which would include how to make comments, etc..  Perhaps more focus needs to be directed to this aspect of competitions.

I would also suggesst that the Kingdom Minister of Arts and Sciences keep the Roster current and correct.  I know that there must be a lot of additions and corrections needed since I handed it over several years ago.

Mistress Ingvild

------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2011 20:28:01 -0500
From: Adina <adinavdh at gmail.com>
To: atlantia at atlantia.sca.org, ponte-alto at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org
Subject: Re: [MR] Congratulations to the Barony of Black Diamond!
Message-ID:
    <CA+6au-c_Kn3qCxT3fdCFJvQwcH262oWJPGogB+d6HVT_AqJb=g at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

>
>   Congratulations to the Barony of  Windmaster's Hill on the announcement
> of the future Baron and Baroness, Mestre Callixtus Gill and Dame Adriana
> la Bretonne!
>
>   Mestre Callixtus Gill and Dame Adriana la Bretonne will be succeeding
> Baron Girard le Bourguignon and Baronne Gueni?vre de Monmarch?, continuing
> the stewardship of Windmaster's Hill; they will be invested at Ymir<http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CBwQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Facorn.atlantia.sca.org%2Fevent_info.php%3Fevent_id%3D613b4e71&ei=xcraTpfVIKrx0gG7rKjiDQ&usg=AFQjCNEdV12ldNndKzPpruHbjxTY3IexPA>.
>
>

-- 
  Adina

Baronessa di Ponte Alto

------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2011 20:29:26 -0500
From: Adina <adinavdh at gmail.com>
To: atlantia at atlantia.sca.org, ponte-alto at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org
Subject: [MR] Congratulations to the Barony of Windmaster's Hill!
Message-ID:
    <CA+6au-dd4+8xAgffXO5BDFwAXy6_o=vrhx3NOXhAqitdqE5_ag at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

>
>   Congratulations to the Barony of  Windmaster's Hill on the announcement
> of the future Baron and Baroness, Mestre Callixtus Gill and Dame Adriana
> la Bretonne!
>
>   Mestre Callixtus Gill and Dame Adriana la Bretonne will be succeeding
> Baron Girard le Bourguignon and Baronne Gueni?vre de Monmarch?, continuing
> the stewardship of Windmaster's Hill; they will be invested at Ymir<http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CBwQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Facorn.atlantia.sca.org%2Fevent_info.php%3Fevent_id%3D613b4e71&ei=xcraTpfVIKrx0gG7rKjiDQ&usg=AFQjCNEdV12ldNndKzPpruHbjxTY3IexPA>.
>
>

-- 
  Adina

Baronessa di Ponte Alto

------------------------------

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