[MR] Should we be concerned?

[Laurence Lagnese]

Someone said this once already...  To catch the bad guys this was something
that did not need to be known to the public.  They aren't breaking any laws
so they didn't need to tell you.

On Fri, Mar 19, 2010 at 4:25 AM, <the.lady.phoenix at gmail.com> wrote:

> frankly, I think that if it was just routine surveillance they would
> not have been as defensive and would have said so other then "no
> comment"  Therefore, my 6th sense that governs my safety is going off.
>  Plus, why place a camera to monitor a "safe" camp ground?  Does not
> add up in my opinion and experience.
>
> Note to self, don't use public parks taken care of by the national
> parks service.
>
> Sara
>
> On 17/03/2010, Jennifer Dobyns <jendobyns at verizon.net> wrote:
> > No.  No need for mass hysteria here (or endless beating of dead
> > horses).  This isn't a case of Big Brother watching us all, it is more
> > likely the case of some type of operation designed to nab someone
> > doing something illegal (there have been many cases of things like
> > marijuana farms being kept in areas like this, for example).  If we
> > were to have a big event in a large, relatively isolated park, the
> > likelihood of running across something like this is fairly low, and
> > unless you're doing something illegal or potentially embarrassing, you
> > shouldn't have anything to worry about.  Besides, the relevant point
> > here is it was on _public_ land.  There is no expectation of privacy
> > in public.  And realistically, considering the technology available on
> > cell phones, violation of our privacy is more likely to come from
> > individuals than government organizations.
> >
> > Genevieve
> >
> > On Mar 17, 2010, at 3:48 PM, Jacqueline Lee wrote:
> >
> >> I found this in a mailing from one of my Yahoo groups.  The Post and
> >> Courier that published the story is the highly respected main
> >> newspaper for Charleston, SC.  It relates to a situation in a
> >> largely undeveloped national forest up on 17 North between Mt.
> >> Pleasant and Georgetown.  While we haven't had any events there for
> >> a long time (sometimes an area can be TOO primitive) it makes me
> >> wonder about other areas frequently used by the SCA.
> >>
> >> Megara
> >>
> >>
> >> Francis Marion has hidden cameras
> >> Forest Service says devices used for law enforcement
> >> By Tony Bartelme
> >> The Post and Courier
> >> Tuesday, March 16, 2010
> >>
> >> 104 Comment(s)
> >>
> >> Last month, Herman Jacob took his daughter and her friend camping in
> >> the Francis Marion National Forest. While poking around for some
> >> firewood, Jacob noticed a wire. He pulled the wire and followed it
> >> to a video camera and antenna.
> >>
> >> The camera didn't have any markings identifying its owner, so Jacob
> >> took it home and called law enforcement agencies to find out if it
> >> was theirs, all the while wondering why someone would station a
> >> video camera in an isolated clearing in the woods.
> >>
> >> Photo by Brad Nettles
> >>
> >> Staff
> >>
> >> Herman Jacob squats next to a stump and log in the Francis Marion
> >> National Forest where he found a video camera buried and pointing
> >> toward a camping site (background) where he and his daughter were
> >> camping. Jacob was looking for firewood when he across the camera
> >> that was put there by the Forest Service.
> >>
> >> He eventually received a call from Mark Heitzman of the U.S. Forest
> >> Service. In a stiff voice, Heitzman ordered Jacob to turn it back
> >> over to his agency, explaining that it had been set up to monitor
> >> "illicit activities." Jacob returned the camera but felt uneasy.
> >>
> >> Why, he wondered, would the Forest Service have secret cameras in a
> >> relatively remote camping area? What do they do with photos of
> >> bystanders? How many hidden cameras are they using, and for what
> >> purposes? Is this surveillance in the forest an effective law
> >> enforcement tool? And what are our expectations of privacy when we
> >> camp on public land?
> >>
> >> Officials with the Forest Service were hardly forthcoming with
> >> answers to these and other questions about their surveillance
> >> cameras. When contacted about the incident, Heitzman said "no
> >> comment" and referred other questions to Forest Service's public
> >> affairs, who he said, "won't know anything about it."
> >>
> >> Heather Frebe, public affairs officer with the Forest Service in
> >> Atlanta, told Watchdog that the camera was part of a law enforcement
> >> investigation, but she declined to provide any of the investigation'
> >> s details.
> >>
> >> Asked how cameras are used in general, how many are routinely
> >> deployed throughout the Forest and about the agency's policies,
> >> Frebe also declined to discuss specifics. She said that surveillance
> >> cameras have been used for "numerous years" to provide for public
> >> safety and to protect the natural resources of the forest. Without
> >> elaborating, she said images of people who are not targets of an
> >> investigation are "not kept."
> >>
> >> In addition, when asked whether surveillance cameras had led to any
> >> arrests, she did not provide an example, saying in an e-mail
> >> statement: "Our officers use a variety of techniques to apprehend
> >> individuals who break laws on the national forest."
> >>
> >> Provided/Herman Jacob
> >>
> >> Herman Jacob found this motion-activated camera in a primitive
> >> campsite in the Francis Marion National Forest.
> >> Video surveillance, of course, is nothing new, and the courts have
> >> addressed the issue numerous times in recent decades. The Fourth
> >> Amendment guards against unreasonable searches and seizures, and
> >> over time the courts have created a body of law that defines what's
> >> reasonable, though this has become more challenging as surveillance
> >> cameras became smaller and more advanced.
> >>
> >> In general, the courts have held that people typically have no
> >> reasonable level of privacy in public places, such as banks,
> >> streets, open fields in plain view, and on public lands, such as
> >> National Parks and National Forests. In various cases, judges ruled
> >> that a video camera is effectively an extension of a law enforcement
> >> officer's eyes and ears. In other words, if an officer can eyeball a
> >> campground in person, it's OK to station a video camera in his or
> >> her place.
> >>
> >> Jacob said he understands that law enforcement officials have a job
> >> to do but questioned whether stationing hidden cameras outweighed
> >> his and his children's privacy rights. He said the camp site they
> >> went to -- off a section of the Palmetto Trail on U.S. Highway 52
> >> north of Moncks Corner -- was primitive and marked only by a metal
> >> rod and a small wooden stand for brochures. He didn't recall seeing
> >> any signs saying that the area was under surveillance.
> >>
> >> Reader poll
> >> Do you agree with the U.S. Forest Service putting surveillance
> >> cameras in the Francis Marion National Forest?
> >> Yes
> >> No
> >> See results
> >> After he found the camera, he plugged the model number, PV-700, into
> >> his Blackberry, and his first hit on Google was a Web site offering
> >> a "law enforcement grade" motion-activated video camera for about
> >> $500. He called law enforcement agencies in the area, looking for
> >> its owner, and later got a call from Heitzman, an agent with the
> >> National Forest Service.
> >>
> >> "He sounded all bent out of shape that I had his camera," Jacob
> >> recalled. He asked Heitzman about the camera's purpose. When
> >> Heitzman told him that illegal activities were taking place in the
> >> area, Jacob said he asked whether it was safe to camp there. He said
> >> that Heitzman reassured him that it was. Jacob said he later
> >> wondered why the Forest Service would set up a camera in an area
> >> they considered safe. "Now, I'm wondering how many campsites they're
> >> monitoring?" He phoned Charleston attorney Tim Kulp for advice.
> >>
> >> The Post and Courier's on-line center for investigative reporting.
> >>
> >> Are you ticked off by people who illegally use handicap placards?
> >> Want to know which restaurants are making you sick or which gas
> >> stations have bad pumps?
> >>
> >> Check out what our Watchdog reporters found.
> >>
> >> Kulp said the Forest Service's failure to explain what they're doing
> >> in the forest raises important privacy questions. "What's the goal
> >> here?" He said the Forest Service also needs to address what they do
> >> with images of people who aren't targets of any investigation,
> >> particularly of children.
> >>
> >> Kulp said people generally are willing to give up their privacy if
> >> it means protection from harm but not if law enforcement officials
> >> are merely cracking down on petty offenses.
> >>
> >> He added that people's expectations of privacy in a remote area in
> >> the National Forest are different than other public spaces. "You're
> >> not going to go to the bathroom in the parking lot of Walmart, but
> >> you're not going to think twice in the forest." Both are public
> >> spaces, he said, but most people likely would expect to have more
> >> privacy in the forest.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> =
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