[MR] Event fees for WOW

[Steve Lackey]

Back when WoW started, it was bandied about that it was a replacement
for Crusades. At the time, I thought it was a great idea. I still do.
Way more bang for the buck vs. the Crusades event that I went to, even
at todays prices. I heard and read "people vote with their feet" quite
often back then. If people do that based on *anything* that I say I
would be highly surprised. I'm nobody, with zero weight behind my
personal opinions and thoughts, but I have no issues discussing them,
as long as it's kept in mind that they are my personal views. I'm
afraid that your analogy to the Gem Jousts isn't really accurate. The
events are way too different, in almost every respect. It sucks to
have to risk 5 grand yearly. I've supported Sapphire since I started
playing in the SCA, the event is just that good for me. WoW, while
fun, has not entered the same class of event as of yet for me
personally.

A couple of points on below on the apples (Gem Jousts) to oranges
(WoW) you are using. Porta potties would be part of event expenses, as
would a rental truck if required, thus pre-"$500 profit" expenses. I
can't imagine needing one based on last year's event (maybe the walls
by the pond?). There is no portable shower being brought to site, nor
a list field. Lets just look at what we got for our money last year
(an event that I enjoyed overall).

There was a fighting field. - part of site expense
There was a shower house (already in place, no need for
transport/maint/storage). - part of site expense
There was a place for horses. - part of site expense (area). I'm not
sure how much event budget was spent on equestrian, but they were fun
to watch!
There were some woods. - site expense
 I'm positive that some Pavilions were provided. If they had not been,
I'm also positive that some kind soul would have lent theirs. This is
the SCA, and that is the kind of thing that we, as SCAdians generally
do. In any event, these would have been provided by the Barony or by
somebody. They already existed though, so their expense shouldn't
really be counted. They usually are used many times during the year
(ours is), and would be covered out of general group operating
expenses.
Porta Johns - event expense.
Dumpster - I assume an event expense

What did I miss? Ah yes, the list field. Well, there was some string.
There is a castle there, we didn't get to use it for fighting last
year for safety reasons I think, but it WAS there (but that is part of
the site, and I assume that that would be covered by the sites fee).
There were some interesting walls down by the pond that were fun to
fight around, and I suppose they could be considered "list field".
They may require a rental truck. Assume they do for the sake of
argument. OK, the small U Haul I got when I was putting things in
storage cost me 50 bucks for the day. Twice (to and from site) would
be 100 bucks and part of the event expense. So the expense for the
walls could have been there, but again, unless they were specifically
built and paid for out of event funds, and used exclusively by the
event they should be covered under Group General funds.

What improvements to the site over last year are there? Anybody?

Any event is a risk to the sponsoring group. The group (hopefully)
decides together whether to assume that risk. If it loses, it loses.
It sucks, but it happens. It happened to us in Black Diamond with this
past Ice Castles for example. It's not an excuse, in my mind to pad
the expenses for next year/event. Note: I'm not saying that the fine
folks putting on WoW are padding the expenses. I am saying that I
don't find it an acceptable reason for any event. For some events, I
can get over that and swallow my distaste if there is enough "fun" to
make up for it. I suppose I could have jacked the price of Assessment
to 10 bucks to make up for the loss we had in January. I didn't though
- because I can't see making the folks coming to Assessment pay for a
loss that they are not responsible for and had nothing to do with.
Sure, almost anybody can afford 3 extra bucks. I didn't feel I had the
right to force people to pay it. It would be "Privatizing profits,
socializing losses" which I find morally reprehensible.

I can not, in good conscious accept that Kingdom would arbitrarily
select a date that conflicts with an event such as Sapphire or WoW for
something else. Kingdom is aware of the importance of the events not
only to the groups but the populous as well. It may be naive of me but
I like to think that Kingdom cares enough about us not to do something
like that except under the gravest circumstances, after much
discussion, and only after explaining it to everybody involved's
satisfaction.

I understand that some expenses for large events have to be paid up
front. The last few times I've rented porta johns, they were paid for
on pickup. Same with the dumpster (actually, they billed for it
net-30). Site requires a deposit, some larger than others. Sites that
charge by the head though, generally don't have a large one I've found
though, since there is no promised number of folks. I can't imagine a
site owned by a SCAdian wanting a large deposit up front, but I
suppose it's possible. The storage comes out of the mythical $500
profit which goes into the general group budget, as would maintenance
of equipment that is used throughout the year.

That "profit" goes to cover the "hidden" costs which the group has to
pay anyway. If the group (any group) can't afford to pay for it's
"stuff" and the storage thereof, then perhaps it has too much "stuff".
Either get smaller storage, or run more events. I'm not against a
reasonable profit - every group needs it to make unrelated expenses. I
am against getting gouged at any event to pay for past mistakes, and
future insurance against failure.

just my thoughts - them along with $5.00 will get you a Starbucks =)

~Estienne

On Wed, Jun 30, 2010 at 4:36 PM, Alan MacNeill <gormofberra at gmail.com> wrote:
> I might suggest you rethink your philosophy, at least in terms of the
> "Major Events" (ie Sapphire, WoW, and any others in that size
> category).
>
> I know not how it goes for the folks down Carolina way, but as a
> recent past Seneschal for the group that hosts the Other Big event
> (the Gem Joust series) on an annual basis, if we only cleared $500 at
> the end, we would not be able to continue hosting the event.
>
> Having a "Major" event has a significant amount of overhead associated
> with it above and beyond a "regular" event.  Caer Mear, for example,
> has to support a portable shower facility, multiple dayshades (and
> even with those, others need to be borrowed), a large list field
> marking facility, storage to keep all this stuff for a year, rental
> trucks to tote it back and forth to the site (volunteers is great, you
> got 8 folks with 8 pickups that can reliably show on a Thursday
> evening and then again on the following Tuesday?  we never did), and a
> whole host of other stuff that the normal "One Day, small field, A&S
> competition in the hall, maybe a court" sort of event doesn't have to
> worry about.
>
> In addition, a major event requires more than the usual load of
> porta-potties, TP, dumpsters, etc, etc, etc.  Not to mention the fact
> that sites that can support 750+ people camping tend to be relatively
> rare and expensive and demanding of their cash up front.  There's a
> reason there were only a handful of bids for Atlantian 30 year, there
> aren't that many places in Kingdom that can hold it.
>
> Caer Mear spends over $5,000 *ahead of the event* to put on Sapphire
> annually.  All of that money is risked, every time.  If there is a bad
> year (think Atlantian 20 year rains), the event might just lose.
>
> Additionally, that infrastructure has to be maintained, even if the
> event is not held for some reason...storage lockers don't say "Oh,
> Kingdom decided they want Memorial Day weekend for a celebration this
> year?  Well...your storage is on us then!" (Admittedly, it did not
> happen this time around, but it was a very real concern).  That means
> that $2,000 (roughly) is spent, even if the event doesn't happen, just
> to make sure the stuff is there for next year.
>
> There is a very real reason that groups that host "the Big Ones" need
> to have significant financial reserves, and that they need the event
> to "clear" more than a thousand bucks.  It's necessary to make sure
> the fun can be had again next year.
>
> Caer Mear is fortunate, they've hosted the Memorial Day weekend event
> for 20+ years now, with a relatively reasonable size progression and a
> long string of mostly successful events has made it so the bank
> balance has that buffer.  The folks behind WoW are just now being
> exposed to their event, and it went from 0 to one of (if not the)
> largest events in Kingdom.  They now are faced with needing to make
> sure they have the capital to handle a failure if it comes.
>
> I can't blame them for raising the fee.  I may or may not attend this
> year, but the relatively cheap (on a dollars per day basis) amount
> they're charging isn't the reason.
>
> I hope that helps you understand where they're coming from,
>
> In unbiased Service,
>
> Gorm of Berra
>
> On Wed, Jun 30, 2010 at 3:43 PM, Steve Lackey <edeconde at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> My philosophy is that any event that nets a group more than $500.00 in
> "profit" (defined simply as moneys left over after all event related
> expenses have been paid) for a group is obscene in todays economy, and
> is not providing a service to the membership at large.
> ========================================================================
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-- 
In Service,

Estienne de Condé
Argent, three falcons vert
Supremus totus, Muneris
---------------
MKA Steve Lackey

The truth is that there is nothing noble in being superior to somebody
else. The only real nobility is in being superior to your former self.
-  Whitney Young (1921 - 1971)