[MR] For those who care about the BSA debate

logan logan at ebonwoulfe.com
Thu Jun 10 11:38:29 PDT 2010 

actually, as i pointed out, the boy scouts official stance regarding
homosexuality was very clear, and not at all concerned with a boys sexual
preference, until the mormon church became its largest source of funds and
prompted the change in their charter specifically shunning homosexuals and
atheists.  it wasnt a relationship that was entered into because of an
agreeing stance on those two subjects.

also, do you really not see the difference in saying "you cant join our
girls club because you have a penis" and stating that someone who is gay or
doesnt believe in your god is morally corrupt?  if they said "you are gay
and/or an atheist and this is a club for straight people that believe in our
god" that would be different and not, at all, an expression of hatred and
bigotry.  for an organization to make a claim that i, as an atheist, or my
father, as a homosexual, are morally defunct is what i find objectionable.
being told i cant play for the girls softball team because of my plumbing is
not.

regards
logan

"I never did give them hell. I just told the truth, and they thought it was
hell." 
Harry S Truman 
"If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his
vengeance need not be feared"
Niccolo Machiavelli
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-----Original Message-----
From: atlantia-bounces at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org
[mailto:atlantia-bounces at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org] On Behalf Of Heather
Engel
Sent: Thursday, June 10, 2010 1:17 PM
Cc: atlantia at atlantia.sca.org
Subject: [MR] For those who care about the BSA debate


Boycotting the BSA until they conform is an interesting notion. It is a
certainly legitimate and responsible way to get your voice heard. Power of
the consumer and 'supply and demand' and all that...
 
The BSA was deemed a private organization and able to deny membership
accordingly based on hundreds of reviewed legal points. Taxes support the
BSA through chartered groups that are also public organizations, such as a
public school that allows a troop to meet and charter at their location. The
argument is that a troop is therefore receiving tax monies through their
association with the school/public organization. Valid point, though schools
also often have clubs and groups that are therefore 'discriminatory'. Such
as all boys or all girls sports, choirs, etc. My school had an official
Christian's Bible Study Group and a GLBT Club, both that maintained a very
exclusive membership. They are therefore receiving tax monies on the same
argument...is that wrong? Maybe. But I think the line becomes too grey to
regulate, so the associate between BSA (and other common groups) and the
public organizations was found not legally significant enough to challenge
the BSA's private status. 
 
If you disagree, then by all means, find a way to encourage the SCA or
individuals in the SCA to boycott BSA. When the ideals of a group or
individuals fail to match with the another, then withdrawing their
affiliation is reasonable, expected and even mutually beneficial. 
 
On the other hand, the majority of this forum sounds like they are favor of
the periodic associations between the SCA and BSA and so this continued
debate is probably not the best way of accomplishing that agenda.
 
Now as for the Mormon agenda you brought up, as a member of the LDS church
and active Scouter, I'll add this: the LDS church uses the BSA program for
their young men because it was a pre-established program that held the same
ideals that the church wanted in the activities program, and so they use it.
They have always maintained that if the two group's ideals were to deviate
then it would be mutually beneficial for the them to end their affiliation.
This is exactly what is being discussed above and is just as reasonable. The
pressure of loosing such a large supporter has undeniable impact on the BSA,
but it isn't unethical. In fact, just the opposite...to return to my
original point. 
 
Now on a personal note, many of you and I probably have differing opinions
on God, sexuality, interior decorating and movies, etc...but I wouldn't call
you a bigot for not agreeing with me. I feel like inserting here, "Can't we
all just get along"? Exclusionary membership in the BSA does not equal hate
or even disrespect. It is currently a religiously oriented, heterosexual,
private organization. That does not innately imply condescension any more
than the all-girls-sports teams or choirs (or even the SCA as limiting the
time era's that it encompasses). It is simply the boundaries of the
organization. No one is teaching boys to hate atheists or homosexuals. As
has been said before, if you do not like it, then support a different
organization or create one. Your freedoms are not limited. And no one will
deem you as less for doing so, in fact I would commend that type of action. 
 
I'll use a racially exclusionary organization (because of the comment of
comparing BSA exclusion to the KKK) as an example and then FINALLY end this
post. In school, I studied Native American anthropology. Many/most native
tribes are exclusionary on both the micro and macro level. Are they bigoted?
Hardly. The notion is ridiculous. Official and unofficial tribes maintain
strict ethnic, racial, and religious boundaries that are unyielding (and btw
they receive huge amounts of tax monies also) but this is an accepted form
of restricted membership that proves that exclusion is not synonymous with
hate. 
 
I suppose what I am saying in this last point, is 'please take no offense
where none is intended'. Speak your mind freely yet respectfully, advocate
for yourself and agendas using the resources at your disposal, such as
voice, boycott and means, and I will do the same. And even if I am not
invited to your club and you are not invited to mine, we can still be
friends and respectful associates. 
 
Mundanely Yours,
Heather 

"All things in moderation; including moderation." - Jim McLaren 



 
> Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 06:23:28 -0400
> From: ylandra at gmail.com
> To: faleston at gmail.com
> CC: atlantia at atlantia.sca.org
> Subject: Re: [MR] Touchy discussions - read before replying to anything
else, please.
> 
> The problem is that this sort of discussion (about the bigotry and
> intolerance) never solves anything. Now if, say, we found some way that
> would change the minds of the people at the upper echelons of the Boy
Scouts
> to be more tolerant, then this whole discussion would prove useful. But
> because it isn't possible, we're picking up a dead horse and beating it
> against the side of the barn.
> 
> Off to set up some more filters...
> 
> ~Lady Glynis Gwynedd
> Barony of Highland Foorde
> "Have you hugged a harp today?"
> --
> "Never argue with an idiot. People watching may not be able to tell the
> difference."
> 
> 
> On Thu, Jun 10, 2010 at 6:11 AM, William de Faleston
<faleston at gmail.com>wrote:
> 
> > Rebecca said:
> >
> > I think in general each troop is as good as its leader and most problems
> > with discrimination are at the individual level rather than the national
> > level.
> >
> > Sadly, as His Grace pointed out, this is not the case. The BSA At the
> > national level is quite proud of it's anti-gay and
anti-atheist/non-believer
> > policies. At the local level, it's often not a focus, which leads to the
> > problems we're having discussing this.
> >
> > For the most part, the bigotry and discrimination in the BSA comes from
the
> > top. Most of the people around here who are involved in scouts are good,
> > welcoming people who have a genuine desire to help kids learn to be
better
> > people.
> >
> > But even though those kids, and, in great measure, their local scout
> > leaders didn't make the discriminatory policy, the policy exists. A
policy,
> > I might add, that the SCA, would never get away with. And as long as the
> > organization chooses to act this way, I won't support it by doing a demo
for
> > the group. I also won't blame anyone else who chooses not to. And
finally, I
> > certainly don't advocate us not talking about it on this list. To say a
> > certain topic is out of bounds because it is politically charged or
because
> > it might upset people we rent sites from leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
One
> > of the tenets of chivalry is truth, and though I am not a knight, I
strive
> > to follow that code by speaking my mind on injustices I see.
> >
> > William de Faleston
> >
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> >
> > On Jun 9, 2010, at 7:37 PM, Becky McEllistrem <bmcellis at yahoo.com>
wrote:
> >
> > Actually the list owner decides what's on this list and I think it is
> >> relevant being that we do tons of demos for scouts.
> >>
> >> I think in general each troop is as good as its leader and most
problems
> >> with discrimination are at the individual level rather than the
national
> >> level. This is often true for all groups.
> >>
> >> Most groups have a standard reporting process that does better with
> >> witnesses than the individual. So if there is a problem to report that
WE
> >> witness we should report it and hopefully with several witness CC'd on
the
> >> report so one person can't pretend to never get a report.
> >>
> >> In either case we won't solve the problem here but suggestions to
> >> resolving problems do help and we do TONS of demos for scouts.
> >>
> >> Rebecca
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Rebecca
> >>
> >>
> >> --- On Wed, 6/9/10, Glynis Gwynedd <ylandra at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> From: Glynis Gwynedd <ylandra at gmail.com>
> >>> Subject: [MR] Touchy discussions - read before replying to anything
else,
> >>> please.
> >>> To: "Merry Rose" <Atlantia at atlantia.sca.org>
> >>> Date: Wednesday, June 9, 2010, 7:26 PM
> >>> Let's nip this one in the bud before
> >>> it goes any further. There is a certain
> >>> type of discussion that belongs on this list - and bashing
> >>> Boy Scouts or any
> >>> other group is not part of that type of discussion.
> >>>
> >>> If y'all want to start an argument, let's discuss things
> >>> which do belong on
> >>> this list, like covering up camp chairs, not smoking on the
> >>> list field, the
> >>> politeness/rudeness (perceived or real) of attending/not
> >>> attending court,
> >>> splitting into principalities, the really good shortbread
> >>> we had at Highland
> >>> River Melees, tennis shoes, sunglasses, cameras, polyester,
> >>> and elves.
> >>>
> >>> By the way - if you can make it to an IKEA near you, the
> >>> Henriksdal white
> >>> chair cover costs $20 and fits those folding director's
> >>> chairs almost
> >>> perfectly. They're 100% cotton and of a heavy enough
> >>> material to not tear
> >>> when folding the chair up with the cover on.
> >>>
> >>> HENRIKSDAL
> >>> chair with armrests cover
> >>> article number: 70137896
> >>>
> >>> I like pizza. Let's talk about things that are
> >>> medieval. Or at least
> >>> medievalish.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> ~Lady Glynis Gwynedd
> >>> Barony of Highland Foorde
> >>> "Have you hugged a harp today?"
> >>> --
> >>> "Never argue with an idiot. People watching may not be able
> >>> to tell the
> >>> difference."
> >>>
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