[MR] 'Point of Honor' - Re: defining terms

[logan]

hey my friend, 

you do understand that when someone says "My lord, I would love to give you
a point of honor, but I fear I may lose to you even in your wounded state"
that the opposite message is conveyed when they do?  not to everyone, sure,
but how is it any different than someone taking their own limb therefore
saying "My lord, I will give you a point of honor, for I have no fear I may
lose to you in your wounded state"?  thats the rub most of us have with the
practice especially when we are told that to wound oneself is a "point of
honor" which implies that to not do so brings you no honor. and, if it
really is a "point of honor" why has it not been offered to me in over a
decade?  i would assume that it is because my opponent wants to win the
fight and is not concerned with "making the fight more challenging" which is
what most of us prefer.  the quest for renown is hindered when your ability
to gain it is removed.  to win a contest at a disadvantage is glorious, to
have your opponent put you at a disadvantage only to remove it to give you a
"do over" makes that quest diminished.

just giving a point of view from the other side of the coin.  i dont think
we can determine which one is right or wrong or that either cant be both.
but it is always better to understand the opposite opinion even if we dont
agree with it, right?  ;^)

regards
logan




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hell." 
Harry S Truman 
"If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his
vengeance need not be feared"
Niccolo Machiavelli
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-----Original Message-----
From: atlantia-bounces at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org
[mailto:atlantia-bounces at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org] On Behalf Of Siegfried
Sent: Wednesday, September 30, 2009 9:04 AM
To: atlantia at atlantia.sca.org
Subject: [MR] 'Point of Honor' - Re: defining terms

I've been keeping quiet during this discussion.  But I want to speak up
now to give simply, a differing viewpoint.

> To me, there are few things that are more disrespectful to a fighter,
> new or otherwise, than to belittle their abilities. Whether that's
> defined as taking one's own leg to take away an advantage fairly won, or
> to take a blow as good that isn't up to your normal standards, you're
> basically telling the person you're fighting that they aren't as good as
> you and should therefore be coddled...

This depends on the fighter, obviously, and I think has alot to do with
how they were trained, where they started in the SCA, and therefore
where their mindset is.

Personally, I see this very differently.   I started fighting in
AEthelemarc (when it was a principality), in a group that was primarily
great weapon fighters, and when there was a very different calibration
level than Atlantia has now.

As part of that.  It was considered common courtesy that:

"If you take a fighters arm or leg, and you feel that given the
advantage the odds are GREATLY in your favor, you can hinder yourself to
make the rest of the fight more challenging."

Never once, therefore, was I, nor have I, been offended when someone
chooses to hinder themself.  Instead I find it extremely courteous of
them to have done this, of them choosing to give me a better chance of
winning.

 (NOTE: They are not wounding themself, just choosing not to use a
particular leg/arm/etc for the rest of the battle -- This would be no
different than them choosing to walk into the battle with a single
dagger in the beginning, for example.)

Instead, I've HAVE been very ego-boosted, when we have had a long hard
fight, and someone takes my arm.  And they publicly state:  "My lord, I
would love to give you a point of honor, but I fear I may lose to you
even in your wounded state"

Or similar situations.

So, in my mindset.  I do not personally feel any disrepect when someone
does this.

HOWEVER:  There are times when I obviously don't expect it.  When in an
'important tourney', such as Crown, where there is much on the line for
the winner.

But at practices, at demos, at smaller events when everyone is just
there to have fun.  I personally see no problems with it.

> Now, when I was teaching, I would take a light blow if it was delivered
> cleanly, but at the same time I would tell the person I was training
> that the blow force was insufficient. After the initial training is
> ending and the individual is ready to authorize, then we fight full on..

As far as 'blows that are lighter'.  I too was originally trained in the
mindset mentioned by Kwellend-Njal that "If it is properly delivered,
clean, and has enough force to be noticed, it is good"

In fact, 'back in the day', it was described to me most simply, that
most of what we are doing is recreating the 'tourney' combat, not the
ravages of war.   In period (some periods) the tourney combat was about
counted blows.   So a clean blow, counted.   Yeah, it had to have enough
force that you knew it was 'thrown correctly'.

But no, it didn't need enough to have truly crippled you through armor.
 YES:  This contradicts what Society Rules state.  However, as recent
tests have shown - the level of force to truly do that, is tremendous,
and higher than we Atlantian's throw.

But again, just stating what people were 'doing back then' as far as
stuff went.

To that end, yes, a lighter blow would be accepted, but unlike Duke
Logan's concerns, no, wrist flicks and similar things were not.  Because
as stated, it needed to be 'properly delivered' still.


Anyway, just another POV.  Everyone so far had been stating that it was
an insult to accept a lighter blow or a point of honor.   To me, I don't
expect people to do them, but I do not see it as an insult either.


After all, once it's said and done, if they person loses because of
doing either of those.  Then I have emerged the victor.  And we all had fun.


Barun Siegfried - Barony of Highland Foorde
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