[MR] Insult vs. Honor -- Chess vs. Go -- was: Re: 'Point of Honor'

[logan]

hand on, the handicap system in go is used to equal the playing field at the
start of the contest.  once the contest begins, like in chess, both players
have an equal opportunity to win (ie they both posses the tools to do so).
the higher ranked (formal ranking system) in go gives the lesser ranked
player more pieces but not more knowledge so i think its the same as chess
or fighting in that we all start out equally.  your epiphany would make more
sense to me if the rules of go allowed for the lesser skilled player to
start with the same stones as the higher ranked player and then, as he lost
more and more stones, he would have extras to place on the board.  that
seems to be more along the lines of "evening the game out after its
started".  i actually have done this when teaching chess in that ive taken
the students piece and then, before ending my move, i put it back and tell
them to pick a different move.  thats what we do at fighter practices
basically.  but never in a chess tourney (at least not when i competed in
them.  talk about failing to adhere to the rules of stereotyping!  starting
middle linebacker and center, captain of the chess and debate teams, 1st
chair with trumpet, and i took home economics 1 and 2.  weird.).  anyway, i
understand your point and appreciate that when folks do "even things up"
they do so with the best intent.  most fighters find it insulting even
though its clearly unintentional.  this is why the practice is slowly going
the way of the dodo.  the problem when folks, especially those of rank, do
it is that they instill through their actions that it is the proper thing to
do.  those newer fighters that see it will assume that it is somehow more
honorable or chivalrous and then mimic the behavior.  they may not know that
the guy they do it to will find insult in it and that is the risk.

it has been an interesting look into peoples varying outlooks even though
the original question that started us down this path remains mostly
untouched (when you judge someone as more chivalrous than everyone else what
do you base that judgment on?).

as for evening sides up at large interkingdom events, i hate it.  bring
whatcha brung is the my preference.  i dont really enjoy grossly
outnumbering the other guys and would prefer to be outnumbered.  the issue
is that people get so wound up about fairness and everyone having fun (which
assumes you cant have fun with a disadvantage, silliness).  this most often
leads to losses of emotional control and melodrama which makes the situation
even worse.  i am always shocked to see how wound up some folks from the
middle and the east get over war points and such at pennsic.  8^O

regards
logan

"I never did give them hell. I just told the truth, and they thought it was
hell." 
Harry S Truman 
"If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his
vengeance need not be feared"
Niccolo Machiavelli
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-----Original Message-----
From: atlantia-bounces at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org
[mailto:atlantia-bounces at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org] On Behalf Of Siegfried
Sent: Thursday, October 01, 2009 8:26 AM
To: Merry Rose
Subject: [MR] Insult vs. Honor -- Chess vs. Go -- was: Re: 'Point of Honor'

I realize that this topic is basically dead now; however, last night I
had a an epiphany that I wished to share.

I was rolling around in my head, the idea of someone being insulted by
being presented a 'point of honoran opponent handicapping himself in
order to theoretically make the rest of the fight more enjoyable, more
fair, versus my own personal idea of being quite happy with it.

Neither is wrong, just different points of view.

As my mind was exploring the topic, it started to branch out into other
forms of this.  For example, at most every melee event one goes to, we
'even up the sides'.  Allies will completely switch sides at Pennsic, so
that the sides are more even, and everyone has more fun with 'equal
chances' to win.  Basically the kingdom who has done the best job of
raising forces, and had an advantage, is giving it up in order to 'make
the fight more fun'.

But then, my mind settled on at least to me, an interesting correllary.

The Insult vs Honor differing points of opinion, are actually very
similar to the differences in Chess vs. Go.


In Chess, one never gives their opponent any kind of advantage.  All
players start with exactly the same board, it would be insulting to try
to do something to give one side an advantage (like letting them make 2
moves before your first one).

However, the renown for beating a 'better opponent', is all the greater,
because of what you had to overcome.  Modern chess rankings take this
into account, and give you a much higher 'bump' in score for beating a
higher ranked opponent.

This concept is very similar to that of the fighters stating that they
feel 'insulted' by their opponent offering up an arm or leg.


In Go (The oriental strategy game), You NEVER play a game, without the
better player handicapping themself to a level that puts both players on
equal terms.  It's built into the ruleset, with rules for how many
stones handicap should be given to the lower player based upon their
rank, there are even locations marked on the board (usually) for where
the handicap stones will go.

In Go, it would be dishonorable to not grant the 'lesser' opponent the
appropriate handicap, such that the game is on even grounds.

This, seems to match the philsophy of those who enjoy, and see honor, in
a fighter handicapping themself.


In Service,
Barun Siegfried - Barony of Highland Foorde
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