[MR] pentagrams in devices

Thu Jul 23 17:55:49 PDT 2009

 I ran into this same problem 'way back in the early 80's when, as a regional herald, I tried to help a young lad get a device passed that had a cannabis leaf on it. His persona was that of a rope-maker, all of his research was in order, the drawing was correct, it went right along with his persona, but the College of Heralds labeled it as "patently offense"....to them, I suppose, and perhaps to an uninformed mundane public. Another time i was at a 9 hour heralds meeting on a Sunday in Virginia when they became dead-locked on a device, simply because they couldn't figure out themselves how to blazon it.Get used to it, this is the way heraldry has always been handled in Atlantia. Glad I got mine passed before they thought anything else up we can't use. Baron Arkein Steinschleifer von Uberstein

-----Original Message-----
From: Chris and Sue <amceagle at bellsouth.net>
To: atlantia at atlantia.sca.org
Sent: Wed, Jul 22, 2009 10:15 am
Subject: Re: [MR] pentagrams in devices

The only concern that springs to my mind is mundane associations at demos
should this device find its way onto a shield, banner, etc.  I don't
particularly care one way or the other what a person chooses to do with
their heraldry as we always have the option for artistic license in drawing
it on shields, banners, etc.  Inside "the game" is a totally different set
of expectations and acceptances than "outside the game" (demos).  That would
be my only worry.

Congrats for those of you who have been waiting for this to overturn.  Get
painting!

Dagobert

-----Original Message-----
From: atlantia-bounces at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org
[mailto:atlantia-bounces at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org] On Behalf Of Tracy
Janicki
Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2009 9:58 AM
To: scribe0002 at aol.com; flonzy at hotmail.com; willets at bellatlantic.net
Cc: atlantia at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org
Subject: Re: [MR] pentagrams in devices

Okay, my 2 cents.  Last time I checked we do this for fun.  Everybody has
there own interpretation of "The Dream".  There are tons of devices out
there that are not particularly "good"  medieval heraldry, but are
grandfathered in.  If someone worked hard to design a  device for themselves
who are we to judge that device if the heralds allow it.  Oh and considering
the fact that there are a  TON of us, getting a  device that strictly
follows medieval heraldic rules is not always so easy, EVERYTHING conflicts.
Especially if you want it to reflect your persona and yourself.  Every
heraldic charge had to be new or unique at some point.  I sympathize with
the plight of the heralds.  It can't be easy to say "Sorry but none of the
56 designs you have submitted can be used..."  If you have issues with the
"modern"  heraldic representations and such, make your device as authentic
as possible.  If I am not mistaken the real point of heraldry was to be
simple,  concise and recognizable across a battle field.  Can't we all just
get along?  

________________________________
From: "scribe0002 at aol.com" <scribe0002 at aol.com>
To: flonzy at hotmail.com; willets at bellatlantic.net
Cc: atlantia at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org
Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2009 9:09:14 AM
Subject: Re: [MR] pentagrams in devices

James, I am sorry you found offense in my words. This was not my intention.
I was not being dismissive of history. I love history and strive to learn
and share all I can. 

My reaction was focused on the "pagan nonsense" phrase of the original post.
That phrase unnecessarily belittled a great swath of folks in our
organization. The term pagan refers to people of an incredibly diverse set
of beliefs and are no more nonsensical then any other group who follow a set
of beliefs. 

Perhaps someone with a better library then I have might cite documentation
that people the church identified as pagans existed well into our period
particularly in the Germanic lands. 

No, the pentagram and pentacle were not their pagan symbols. These symbols
were owned by the Christian church ... and used frequently in period
Christian art. On heraldry? I don't believe so. But used in decorative
formats? Yes.

So the motif is historical to our time. We allow quite a wide band of
historical motifs in our registered heraldry much of which was never seen on
a banner, shield or tourney field. Why should this period example of
decorative design be held differently?

The other aspect of my post referred to the fact that while we strive toward
the pre-1600 time frame, that is not all we are as an organization,
especially in our heraldry. The College of Arms and our Laurel team are
constantly in the position of finding balance between the desire for
historical accuracy and current reality of membership. This is a group of
people who voluntarily put a great deal of time in service and research that
is regularly denigrated.

If the College were to hold strictly and singularly to what can be proven to
have been displayed as heraldic design in period a great many devices
carried proudly by members of this organization would be forfeit. 

The objection to this particular design stems from specific religious
understandings ... or misunderstandings, usually held by the
Christianchurch. The SCA is quite specifically a non-religious organization.
How the design is used by members of the SCA and the meaning it has to those
who seek to carry it is their personal business. 

In my opinion the College has simply and rightly removed a restriction based
on a modern religious bias from our historical game.

Be well

~gise

-----Original Message-----
From: flonzy at hotmail.com  <flonzy at hotmail.com>
To: scribe0002 at aol.com  <scribe0002 at aol.com>; willets at bellatlantic.net
<willets at bellatlantic.net>
Cc: atlantia at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org  <atlantia at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org>
Sent: Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:38 am
Subject: Re: Re: [MR] pentagrams in devices

I find the dismissive attitude towards history in your post just as
disturbing as the dismissive attitude of Pagan religion in the othe post.

Has anyone found the use of a pentangle or a pentagram in heraldry or are
the examples of the symbol Christian church or peasant superstition related?
I ask would the use of these symbols be a nod to history or ones modern
life? Can we not leave the modern world behind for just a few hours?

I ask where is the courtesy in dismissing or guideline of pre 17th century
while participating in the SCA?

James

----------
Sent from AT&T's Wireless network using Mobile Email

-----Original Message-----

From: scribe0002 at aol.com 

Sent: 7/22/2009 2:33:21 AM

To: willets at bellatlantic.net 

Cc: atlantia at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org 

Subject: Re: [MR] pentagrams in devices

?The tone of this post was very dismissive. Discussion is a good thing,
disrespect is not. 

Quite a few folks on this list and in this organization identify as pagans.
It is a recognized religious classification in the US. One of the facts that
convinced Wreath to allow the change was the recent acceptance by the US
Govt of the pagan symbols for headstones for fallen soldiers, sailors and
marines who practice pagan beliefs.

I think we will all accept that our devices are more to us then strictly
historical display. We are not pure historical re-enactment. 

We are an organization of courtesy and respect. Please, can we keep the tone
of posts respectful?

Gisela vom Kreuzbach

?

?

-----Original Message-----

From: Vernon And Susan Willet <willets at bellatlantic.net>

To: Dave Montuori <damont at wolfstar.com>; nodecaf at nodecaf.com

Cc: atlantia at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org

Sent: Tue, Jul 21, 2009 10:14 pm

Subject: Re: [MR] pentagrams in devices

Just a comment here, on this pagan nonsense.? Being a pagan in medieval 

Europe was a very dicy proposition.? Best bet scenario entailed secret 

meetings of like minded individuals, furitive flitting about in the woods. 

Worst case brought the unwelcome attention of the Inquisition, with its 

attendant hotfoot.? Pagan displays are grotesquely out of period, anyway. 

Pagans date from 1890 or so; Aliester Crowley and the Golden Dawn.? Totally 

fabricated (See Crowleys "True Book of Lies".? There is no authentic 

history, otherwise, since Caesar slaughtered the Druids on the Isle of Man 

and they left no records.? Might as well add flourishes and curling banners 

to your hearaldry, if you are going to allow pentograms.? They are both 

victorian romance.? More history might quell some of the fantasy.? Just my 2

pence.?

?

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "Dave Montuori" <damont at wolfstar.com>?

To: <nodecaf at nodecaf.com>?

Cc: <atlantia at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org>?

Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2009 7:58 PM?

Subject: Re: [MR] pentagrams in devices?

?

>> As a real practicing Pagan, I will say that it is with a sigh of 
>> relief?

>> that here in the SCA some have finally begun to see past religious?

>> prejudices.?

>?

> As one who has been a member of the College of Arms through the last?

> *three* times this issue came up, let me point out that it is 
> *MUNDANE*?

> religious prejudices that needed to be overcome.?

>?

> The only reason the ban was upheld in the 1990s was that too many 
> non-SCA?

> people in certain areas of the USA would have seen this as an?

> ANTI-religious symbol, which would have been horrid P.R. for the SCA 
> which?

> already had a shaky reputation in some of those areas. In the past 
> dozen?

> years quite a bit has changed, in this case for the better.?

>?

> Evan da Collaureo?

> Sackbut Herald?

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