[MR] pentagrams in devices
logan
logan at ebonwoulfe.com
Thu Jul 23 07:44:11 PDT 2009
the problem is that people like this guy are dumb as a brick and will rarely
seek information before making assumptions. nobody has ever said that folks
cant wear the symbols of their religions, only that the sca will not
officially recognize such symbols. until now. the question should have
been asked "how does registering a pentagram (or any other symbol) enhance
our society?" and "how does it potentially hurt our society". i cannot
imagine how doing so enhances the sca no more than registering a horse does.
i can imagine the potential harm it could have (which is supported by the
idiot, and some of his buddies, commentary on some obscure online blog). i
think, when weighing the two, that this was a mistake.
regards
logan
"I never did give them hell. I just told the truth, and they thought it was
hell."
Harry S Truman
"If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his
vengeance need not be feared"
Niccolo Machiavelli
www.ebonwoulfe.com
www.fighterpractice.com
-----Original Message-----
From: atlantia-bounces at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org
[mailto:atlantia-bounces at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org] On Behalf Of Steven
Chang
Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2009 9:45 AM
To: atlantia at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org
Subject: Re: [MR] pentagrams in devices
And this is why the guy is still confused about the SCA, because the
people who replied to him failed to explain anything at all. Instead,
they were trying to change his point of view on Christianity.
You get into trouble when you dabble in another man's faith. All that
needed to be said was: "The SCA is a group of people that love history
and like to dress up pretending they are living back in the days of
King Arthur"
Thats it. Heck that would have made it clear to him even if he was
dumb as a brick, which sounds like he is. The issue actually was
confused by the extra stuff that was dished into his small brain. I
think it got overloaded, and the rest of what was said went right over
his head.
On 7/23/09, Wayne Remes <wremes at carolina.rr.com> wrote:
> As much as I hate to admit it, the people complaining of allowing the
> Pentagram into SCA heraldy have a point.
>
> Sacred Stone within the last year have had local police stop by SCA events
> at least twice. They were there to investigate complaints of animal
> sacrifice made specifically against the SCA from locals. It so happens
that
> an actual Pagan organization also uses the campground, and some of the
> locals seem to have confused us with them. Of course these local bozos
don't
> really know if the Pagans were actually performing animal sacrifice, as
they
> are actually too small minded (and truthfully probably too scared) to
> approach anybody to ask what it is they are seeing. The probem with us
> fighting locals perceptions that the SCA is involved with devil worship
and
> withcraft is that it is rumor speading underground via word of mouth and
the
> internet, so usually by the time we hear of it...rumor and inuendo has
> already done it's dirty work. Luckily we had a (1 and only 1, ein, uno,
> hanna, ichi) local stop by Kingdom Assessments to check out a story
> accusing us of being Pagans and involved with witchcraft in a local right
> wing online blogsite. The lady drove up, rolled down the window of her car
> and asked me "Are youall involved with witchcraft and Paganism?"
> (Incidently, I had the same question asked of me by a lady when my Canton
> walked past her as we particpated in a Thanksgiving/Christmas Parade about
3
> years ago. At the parade it was probably the black cloaks worn by many of
us
> as it was cold in late November).
>
> As you can see we, as an organization have enough problems getting lumped
in
> with Pagan activities now, without dealing with what mainstream
conservative
> Christian America's thoughts on a pentagram means to them when they see it
> displayed prominatly in heraldy used by us. It is not the SCA's job to
> witness for Paganism, or attempt to improve current Pagan-Christian
> relations. Neither are we a historical evangical organization bringing the
> truth of Pagan culture to the world in general. We gather together among
> ourselves to promote historical knowledge and skills AMOUNG OURSELVES. Yes
> we do historical demos at places other than our events....but that is not
> really our purpose, otherwise we would be advertising our activities in
> mainstream publications instead of our SCA specific publications.
>
> Below is the contents of the Blog in question. The idiot who started this
> thread was so stupid he didn't even realize that the link that he visited
> and got riled up about was not even an SCA link, or mentioned the SCA. Nor
> did he bother to google SCA after seeing our sign...and still, nearly 3
> weeks after a post by our Baronial Seneschal explaining who and what we
are,
> hasn't biothered to say "Oh..I'm sorry I prefer to keep my head up my butt
> 24/7, otherwise I might actually have a clue, and or learn something.
> (hopefully the cut and pasted blogs will make it thru the Yahoo filters.
>
> Axel
> Pagans Event on Center Road < Return to Topics
> Sameolestuff Posted 1:32, 06/20/2009
> I had no idea that we had an organized event for witchcrafters
> right here in our own back yard on Center Road, near Mitchell Chapel
Church
> - see
>
http://ncpagansoutdoors.com/ncpo/index.php?main_page=document_general_info&c
Path=10_15&products_id=13
> . I thought the castle that you could see from the road was a paintball
> building, and a sign says, SCA - I thought that might be Sons of the
> Confederacy or something - boy was I wrong!!! What kinds of things are
they
> really doing down there when they hold these "events"? Do the citizens of
> Yadkin know about this and its inclusion of children? Someone should get
rid
> of these heathens from this county and let them take their heathen
> activities somewhere else!!!
>
> walks the talk Posted 2:9, 06/20/2009
> I suppose if you really would like to know what goes on at the
> 'event', you could go and see first-hand. Some pagan ways are with us
> today..like going to church on Sunday. Sunday is the day that pagans
> celebrate the sun. SATURDAY is the Sabbath..the Bible says so.
> I don't think that 'someone' can 'get rid of' them..they are not
> doing anything illegal.
>
> BlizzardAge Posted 2:27, 06/20/2009
> Why get mad at the pagans? They're superstitious and believe in
> magic, just like Christians.
>
> coollittlehot Posted 7:13, 06/20/2009
> It's kind of funny how big a problem you have with Christians,
> Blizzard. Every chance you get...hmm... I hope you have a good Saturday.
>
> wizard Posted 8:5, 06/20/2009
> All this place does, is live like people in medieval times while
> they are there. They even wear period dress. If you don't believe me, do
> like I did one Saturday, go by and visit. You will be amazed. Plus, you
will
> be very welcome. This place has been there for years, so what have these
> people done to pi$$ Sameolestuff off?
>
> Grams Posted 8:39, 06/20/2009
> The community tried to stop this from happening BEFORE it
started
> - unsuccessfully I might add.
>
> Sameolestuff Posted 9:50, 06/20/2009
> Walkthewalk - check out their website and you can see what goes
on
> if you read EVERYTHING. The day that people worship is irrevelant, and
they
> may not be doing anything illegal, but I certainly wouldn't want my family
> participating in something that. Invite them to church where they can find
a
> way that will lead them to Heaven rather than hell. Blizzard - Christians
> don't believe in magic. Wizard - it's only been at the Center Rd location
> for 2 years and I'll bet most people are like me - they didn't know what
it
> was or what it stands for. I'm not mad at them - I just don't want them
near
> me! Grams - who owned the land? Wish I'd known sooner about the community
> trying to stop it and I would have tried to lend some support against it
> too! Ya'll have a good day!
>
> Sameolestuff Posted 10:7, 06/20/2009
> oh forgot - Wizard - how did you get in? There's a Posted sign
> there now so I just assumed that you couldn't just walk in off the street?
>
> wizard Posted 13:28, 06/20/2009
> The place is open to the public. There are a lot of visitors
come
> to watch how things used be done in medieval times. There was nothing
pagen
> or religious that I have seen. These people have done nothing to anyone in
> this county.
> Sameolestuff, you should go by one Saturday. How in the world
can
> you be scared of something you know nothing about. I live within a mile
from
> the place, and I have never heard of anyone trying to stop it or complain
> about the place.
>
> sameolestuff Posted 15:34, 06/20/2009
> Wizard - Not scared just don't want it around if it is
witchcraft
> and the like. I guess some of their website activities' descriptions may
be
> misleading then? Wonder why they have a Posted sign if it's public?
>
> libertarian Posted 15:52, 06/20/2009
> sameole
>
> don't believe in magic??
>
> Mark 16:18
>
> the Christian religion is based on Pagan beliefs....you, like
most
> Christians, don't even know the history of your religion.....
>
> Jesus Christ is the personification of the Sun in the age of
> Pisces....
>
> what's the difference between what you are doing and what they
are
> doing?
>
> libertarian Posted 15:54, 06/20/2009
> lets rid our society of Pagans and Marijuana....NOW!!!!!
>
> Nature 7 Posted 16:38, 06/20/2009
> What is the big deal, sameole? No one is forcing you or anyone
> else to go. 'Heathens'? geez.
> Medieval/Pagan..it's history. There are re-enactments all over
the
> world.
> wizard: You are so right.
>
> Sameolestuff Posted 19:33, 06/20/2009
> Nature7 - Webster's Dictionary - "pagan: 1. n., a heathen, esp.
> one who worshipped the gods of ancient Greece and Rome". I rest my case on
> that one. And Libertarian - my Christian belief started with, "God created
> the heavens and the earth", and Jesus Christ, not some Sun and Pisces
> garbage, is someone who died so that we could live forever if we believe
on
> Him. And if you want to smoke your marijuana, more power to ya. I ain't
even
> gonna go there. My whole point is that I (and probably many others) didn't
> know little ole Yadkin could be the seat of one of these Heathen, oh
excuse
> me, Pagan activities. Ya'll have a good evening! LOL
>
> libertarian Posted 19:43, 06/20/2009
> wow, you got me there.....you pulled out the bible!!!
>
> tomorrow, SUNday, ask your preacher why you go to church on the
> first day of the week instead of the last.....
>
> 1st_amendment_rights Posted 20:17, 06/20/2009
> I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your
Christians
> are so unlike your Christ.
> Mohandas Gandhi
>
>
> I'm Someone 2 Posted 0:16, 06/21/2009
> Witchcraft correlates with Wicken not Paganism, there is a
> difference. And why does God and the Sun have to be two different
entities,
> they're both metaphors after all. Happy Summer Solstice everyone!
>
> sameolestuff Posted 0:22, 06/21/2009
> What's the price of eggs in China have to do with anything,
e.g.,
> going to church on Sat vs. Sunday? I thought this thread was about the
SCA,
> not worship day. Libertarian - just stick to your good Obama jokes - they
> made better sense.
>
> libertarian Posted 9:21, 06/21/2009
> happy solstice!
>
> SBD Posted 19:3, 06/21/2009
> lib, it appears that you don't like the way we live our daily
> lives down here. fyi, there is no guard at the county lines to stop you
from
> leaving.
>
> libertarian Posted 21:0, 06/21/2009
> SBD
>
> who cares how you live your daily lives....as long as you don't
> harm anybody and pay your own way, have at it....
>
> anyway, what did i say to make you say that?
>
> let the Pagans have theirs, just like the Christians....i don't
> have to believe either though it is interesting....
>
> TrueAmerican Posted 0:43, 06/22/2009
> Pagans are treehuggers, liberals, and vegetarians. In other
words
> IDIOTS!
>
> BlizzardAge Posted 1:17, 06/22/2009
> TrueAmerican:
>
> Hahaha. You lump vegetarians in with liberals and tree huggers.
I
> know a conservative who is a vegetarian. It doesn't mean you're a liberal.
> The few vegetarians I know don't eat meat because they are either grossed
> out by the idea of eating dead flesh or think eating meat is less healthy
> that plants. There are, of course, those who don't eat meat because they
> think it's cruelty to animals. So what?
>
> libertarian Posted 20:45, 06/22/2009
> TrueAmerican
>
> it's ok to hug a tree.....be kind to nature, it's where we came
> from....creationist or not....
>
> AtheistmovedEast Posted 13:10, 06/23/2009
> I loath stupid religious nuts that don't even know much about
> their own religion.
>
> One reason I will never live in YC again.
>
> Almost every single holiday that Christians celebrate are pagan
in
> origin. Any that aren't still have heavy pagan influence. And pagans
aren't
> witches.
>
> Ignorant Nuts.
>
> sameolestuff Posted 11:45, 06/24/2009
> Vegetarian-bashing? Who cares about anyone's diet! LOL I still
> wonder why this group chose little ole Yadkin since some of the main
honchos
> are from the mountains - guess they didn't want to be found out in Boone
or
> Ashe co!
>
> And pagans aren't associated with witches? According to the
> website in the first posting above, one person is one: "Sarah" [Monroe]
"is
> a natural Pagan Witch.....
> Their continuing ideas have gone into the planning for PWW's and
> Hocus Pocus Focus." And if it's not associated with wicca, if you do a
> search on "hocus pocus focus", witches, wicca items, etc. will be
displayed.
>
> From the Yadkin site, "Weapons, of any kind, that can have a
duel
> purpose as ritual items or for ceremonial use are welcome but must be
peace
> tied (visibly tied securely or positively retained) at all times unless
> being used for ritual or ceremonial purposes and must be re-peace tied
after
> use. " - what do they use knives for in their ceremonies? Just
> curious...."Also part of the sabbat ritual was a magic circle that had
been
> traced on the ground by the tip of a magical knife. These circles were
> created to gather the witches' special power" - there we go about witches
> again - LOL
>
> And AtheistmovedEast, glad you're there and not here anymore! My
> Christian celebrations start with Christ but aetheists just don't quite
get
> that part! Just call me "Ignorant" - what's that saying about sticks and
> stones may.... ??
>
> Have a good one!
>
> coollittlehot Posted 11:59, 06/24/2009
> I was just reading the website. It made me think about an
episode
> of King of the Hill. Do you guys remember when Bobby started playing with
> Tarot cards and then got hooked up with a bunch of folks like this? They
had
> names like "Dragonzmajick Ravenstag" and "Lady Puma Moonlily" too! Which
one
> do you think will be drinking the dog blood? LOL
>
> RAMedIfIDoRAMedIfIDon't Posted 13:23, 06/24/2009
> This was nothing more than an attention getting event and it
looks
> like they succeeded. Ignore them and they will move on.
>
> easternbender Posted 15:24, 06/24/2009
> If any of you had bothered to do a little reading instead of
> assuming you would see that it is a campground open to anyone who wishes
to
> rent it. Pagans rented it for a weekend retreat, that is what the link in
> the original posting showed ...SCA is the Society for Creative Anacronism.
> They are basically Era recreators just like all those who participate in
the
> civil war reenactments all over the south. The difference is they re-enact
> middle ages. " The SCA is an international organization dedicated to
> researching and re-creating the arts and skills of pre-17th-century
Europe.
> Our "Known World" consists of 19 kingdoms, with over 30,000 members
residing
> in countries around the world. Members, dressed in clothing of the Middle
> Ages and Renaissance, attend events which feature tournaments, royal
courts,
> feasts, dancing, various classes & workshops, and more."
http://www.sca.org/
> This would be a fabulous opportunity for those who have read,
King
> Arthur, Merlin, Robinhood, 3 Musketeers or other wonderful literature, to
> take your children so they can see it come alive. Instead of trying to
stop
> something you have no idea about try contacting them and getting educated.
> It could benefit your children in the long run instead of them being lost
in
> the bad education system, try supplementing their education with something
> of this nature that is creative, educational and attention catching.
>
>
> easternbender Posted 15:31, 06/24/2009
> Your teen kids can do a heck of a lot worse things than join an
> organization with this kind of behavior clause and teaching ability.
>
> http://www.sca.org/officers/chatelain/pdf/SCATeens.pdf
>
> I wish half these holligans running around Yadkin County would
be
> forced to join and learn some manners and respect instead of the mess they
> pull on a daily basis.
>
>
> easternbender Posted 15:44, 06/24/2009
> Looks like they had lots of fun to me..
> http://www.psalterydreams.com/news/?p=132
>
> UnusPopulus Posted 9:46, 06/28/2009
> Perhaps I can shed some light on this. I'm actually a part of
this
> organization, and the owner of the property you are mentioning is a very
> good friend and mentor to me. Your accusations of witchcraft and sacrifice
> are baseless, and it's odd that you could make such unfounded claims
without
> any sort of prior knowledge. The society's purpose is to recreate the
Middle
> Ages through dress, demeanor and period events, and there are people of
> every background and religious following involved.
>
> fiesta pantalones Posted 16:35, 06/28/2009
> UnusPopulus
>
> Are you "Dragonzmajick Ravenstag" or "Lady Puma Moonlily"? LOL
>
> libertarian Posted 23:27, 06/28/2009
> http://www.pocm.info/
>
> sameolestuff Posted 15:27, 06/29/2009
> UnusPopulus - if this is just Middle Ages recreation why are
there
> so many other activities associated with WICCA that are mentioned on many
> webpostings/sites? Sounds like there's more happening than just guys
running
> around in kilts. I was checking the weather on Accuweather.com, and saw
the
> posting about the "Booneville" event this past weekend - they can't even
> spell Boonville - and other related articles about this "religion or
> whatever you want to call it" - does the Booneville event have sacrificing
> in it? Just curious...have a bewitching good day!
>
> SBD Posted 15:40, 06/29/2009
> If this was something like a
> Renaissance fair I went to one outside of Charlotte twice and
saw
> nothing wrong with that. As a matter of fact I have been planning to go
> back. If this is something different please advise.
>
> lamont Posted 18:1, 06/29/2009
> I think it would be the same as civil war reenactment.
>
> walks the talk Posted 3:8, 06/30/2009
> I have friends that are part of the Kingdom of
Caid...(medieval).
> Yes, it is history. Yes, there are re-enactments. Also, there is
> volunteering to do good things..like this>
>
> http://rose.sca-caid.org/pinkribbon/index.php
>
>
>
> OOgie Posted 11:51, 07/02/2009
> bliz mentions being a legal scholar. A lawyer named Lee Strobel-
> from Chicago- was once the legal reporter for a Chicago newspaper- has
> written a book "Evidence That Demands A Verdict". I recommend this book to
> you.
>
> OOgie Posted 17:39, 07/02/2009
> The book title listed above was written by Josh McDowell. It is
a
> good book. I also recommend the Lee Stroble books, different titles.
> # The Case for Faith: A Journalist Investigates the Toughest
> Objections to Christianity, October 1, 2000, Zondervan, ISBN 0310220157
>
> KateRauhauserSmith Posted 23:52, 07/11/2009
> Hello, everyone. I had never heard of this Web site before today
> or would have answered some of your questions earlier. I'm president of
the
> local branch of the SCA...called the Barony of the Sacred Stone it reaches
> from the VA border to the SC border encompassing Mt. Airy, Elkin,
> Winston-Salem, Greensboro, Salisbury, Statesville, Hickory, Gastonia and
> Charlotte. I appreciate the initiative of the lady who stopped by our
event
> at the Elchenburg Castle site today.
>
> Sameolestuff, you've assumed that all the groups that use
> Elchengurg Castle are the same or have the same purpose. You are mistaken.
>
> The SCA, as some others in this thread have pointed out, is an
> officially registered educational non-profit organization that researches
> and recreates many aspects of history prior to 1600. We hold events for
our
> own edification and play. We also provide demos for libraries, schools and
> other organizations on aspects of Medieval history.
>
> We are quite specifically not a religious organization.
Religious
> activities are not permitted to be part of our events, Christian, Muslim,
> Hindi, Pagan or anything else.
>
> NC Pagans Outdoors is a completely separate organization though
> several of us have met through our common use of the Elchenburg site. They
> are good decent folks who have a different view of the world. Yes, some
are
> witches but that is a term that has very little resemblance to any
> description I've heard in local churches. There is no Devil worship ... in
> fact most of those folks don't believe in the Devil since he is a player
in
> the Judeo/Christian religions and not theirs.
>
> Regardless, though, they are not the SCA. Please check out
> SCA.org, Atlantia.SCA.org or SacredStone.Atlantia.SCA.org to learn more
> about the SCA.
>
> One note, the camp ground is private property, which is why it's
> posted with no trespassing signs. There have been several instances of
theft
> at the site. Groups rent the site and have access to it that way.
>
> SCA events are open to anyone who wants to participate. If you
> come there is a gate fee (remember we're a non-profit and we have to cover
> our expenses) and you are required to dress in an "attempt" at pre-1600
> clothing. We have some loaner garb but it's always best to contact our
> newcomer officer (we call that office Chatalaine or Castelain) so we can
> make sure to have clothing on site that will fit you.
>
> I hope this has been helpful in addressing the concerns some
folks
> seem to have. Please feel free to contact me at Kate.Rauhauser.Smith AT
> gmail.com if you have any other questions.
>
> Be well....Kate
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: <nodecaf at nodecaf.com>
> To: <atlantia at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org>
> Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2009 7:53 AM
> Subject: Re: [MR] pentagrams in devices
>
>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Gezz - what a firestorm of hoopla.
> > <sadly shakes head> Folks here sure have a way of sucking the
> > joy out of what I thought was a bright happy moment for tolerance.
> > Perhaps the SCA is not as open-minded as the credit that I gave it.
> > After reading page after page of comment & debate, I have to
> > sadly wonder if this is an appropriate place for my son and I - gee
> > I hope so, but quite frankly now I am a little scared. From what I
> > have read here perhaps there should be a notice on the front door of
> > the SCA that reads, "No real Pagans - No real Rom - Christians
> > preferred."
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Like it or not, the symbols of both the
> > pentacle and the pentagram have historical precedent in period. By
> > choosing to lift the ban on such, perhaps the heralds also chose to
> > look at real 21st century appropriateness and
> > consequences. Would the SCA really like to portray itself as a
> > organization flaunting religious discrimination? How long would it
> > last if that was the case?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > If you are banning one religious
> > symbol, then ban them all, regardless of use in period. [The cross btw
was
> historically used as a European Pagan symbol indicating the four
> > earth elements - earth/air/fire/water. During Roman times it became
> > a symbol of dominance, torture and death - much in the same we
> > modernly see the use of the swastika. Early church leaders, did not
> > use the cross as a symbol. That happened a few hundred years late
> > during the start of mass conversions of the country dwellers - i.e.
> > the "pagans". The leaders knew of the mixed symbolism and message
> > behind its use, they were not stupid. On one hand it was used as, "see
its
> a friendly
> > familiar "pagan" symbol" - on the other, it was used as a
> > visual strong arm - "convert or be subject to death" - the
> > perfect visual symbol for building a male dominate cult among
> > uneducated pagan masses. To me that is a heck of a lot more scary and
> > offensive than a little star & circle that originally had to with
> > the morning star of Venus. www.symbols.com
> > for any interested in the history of visual symbolism.]
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > As to those worrying about the real
> > world consequences of not being able to use a campground or meeting
> > hall because of a star in a circle, remind discriminatory hall owners
> > of reality. Discrimination based on religion in this country is a
> > federal crime. While we may play in the Medieval period, we still
> > have to abide by the laws of modern times.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Oh and while I am on my soapbox [and a
> > bit riled because of blatant calls here for intolerance and
> > discrimination].... please do not make the assumption that all Pagans
> > are "Wicca with an agenda". That would be like saying all
> > Christians are Catholic and support the Republican party platform to
> > the letter. As with any group of people, there are many views -
> > none better than any one other. There is within the Pagan community a
> > huge variant, however we seem to have a tolerance for all [maybe our
> > Christan brothers can learn a lesson or maybe they have just
> > forgotten what it was like to be persecuted]. We do not draw a circle
> > to exclude, but rather to include within a large family. Do know that
> > some of us, particularly of Rom / Balkan decent, have been here all
> > along, meaning since the middle ages. Old ways have been masked,
> > shrouded and shielded by also practicing the religion of the region
> > and handed down silently. It is only within my lifetime that laws
> > have changed so that such can be practiced openly without the risk of
> > loosing your children to the state or of being jailed just for your
> > religion. [And gee, how medieval is that.]
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Tsura.
> >
> > [who will now go back to being her quiet ungrumpy self]
> >
> >
> >
> ========================================================================
> > The Merry Rose Tavern at Cheapside
> > List Info: http://merryrose.atlantia.sca.org/
> > Submissions: Atlantia at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org
> > Subscriptions:
> http://seahorse.atlantia.sca.org/listinfo.cgi/atlantia-atlantia.sca.org
> >
> >
>
> ========================================================================
> The Merry Rose Tavern at Cheapside
> List Info: http://merryrose.atlantia.sca.org/
> Submissions: Atlantia at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org
> Subscriptions:
> http://seahorse.atlantia.sca.org/listinfo.cgi/atlantia-atlantia.sca.org
>
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The Merry Rose Tavern at Cheapside
List Info: http://merryrose.atlantia.sca.org/
Submissions: Atlantia at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org
Subscriptions:
http://seahorse.atlantia.sca.org/listinfo.cgi/atlantia-atlantia.sca.org
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