[MR] Authenticity (was pentograms)

[David Chessler]

Even in europe, there were pagan areas well into the period we emulate.
Iceland voted to become Christian about the year 1000. Other parts of
Scandinavia were also late. The Teutonic Knights were still trying to
Christianize parts of Poland, Russia, and the Balkans well into the 14th C, or
later. 

On the other hand, so many symbols have been used by Christians at one time or
another, that it is very hard to find symbols that are only pagan. Some
symbols are so predominantly pagan or otherwise repulsive that they should be
barred (such as the swastika--fylfot). But proctor and gamble's experience
with objections to the moon and stars it uses should be a warning not to get
carried away by our desire not to needlessly offend.
--

YIS

Davitt il Bigollo da Pisa
Erudit de l'Academie de Espee de Atlantia
Storvik (rapier)
Roxbury Mill (other things) 

------ Original Message ------
Received: Wed, 22 Jul 2009 12:05:44 PM EDT
From: Steven Chang <moondragn at gmail.com>
To: Merryrose <atlantia at atlantia.sca.org>
Subject: Re: [MR] Authenticity (was pentograms)

> I understand your viewpoint to make the SCA more historically
> accurate. But you do realize that originally the founders of the SCA
> had no such ideas. In fact, they originally didn't even have naming
> rules in place nor any requirements for accurate heraldry.
> 
> It was the people that followed the founders that specified these rules.
> 
> Thats ok. But ultimately it is a balance of fun vs history. So
> religion should have NOTHING to do with the SCA. But you can't avoid
> that because Christianity took a big part of history. If you were not
> in the parts of the midieval world that involved Christianity, then
> Paganism had a big part of history as well.
> 
> So NEITHER should be ridiculed, they just need to be respected. What
> if someone decided to make Swastika's part of their device? It was a
> historical symbol used even back in the middle ages by the Chinese.
> What if someone took offense to that?
> 
> Let the heralds worry about the authenticity. If proof can be provided
> that it was used in heraldry then it is up to them to decide whether
> or not it SHOULD be used.
> 
> If you want to talk about authenticity, what about some of these
> cartoon characters on heraldry? They certainly did not have these
> particular characters back in the medieval times.
> 
> Whatever is decided, there can't be a double standard. If the idea is
> to avoid religious symbols, then crosses, which were common in
> heraldry, should be disallowed as well.  This is why this overturn was
> a good idea, because it does eliminate that particular double
> standard.
> 
> Certainly we already have guidelines in place for heraldry, and I
> think we should just let the heralds do what they know best.
> 
> Just remember this... This is a Society of Creative Anachronisms, not
> Society of unerring History.
> 
> On 7/22/09, Vernon And Susan Willet <willets at bellatlantic.net> wrote:
> > To my friends of the SCA, and to the Fair Lydia, in particular,
Greetings.
> >
> > I see my post has touched a nerve and put the "cat among the pigeons", so
to
> > speak.  If I seemed dismissive, well, I was.  Nor do I apologize for
that.
> > We claim to be history oriented society but we embrace a large number of
> > non-historical concepts.  We are so liberal with our interpretation of
> > history that virtually anything goes.  Does anyone remember the "10 foot
> > rule".  I think His Majesty has put an effective end to that over the
course
> > of his many reigns, at least on the field of combat.  Does anyone mourn
for
> > freon can helms?  Or carpet armour?  Or plastic elf ears?  These are just
> > some of the things which make the legitimate reenactors ridcule the SCA.
> > The preponderance of overt pagans is another.
> >
> > If you choose to be a Modern Pagan, by all means, do what you will.  It
is,
> > after all, the Whole of the Law.  But why should you bring it into a
group
> > which already has issues with authenticity?  Shall I hold a Mass at an
> > event?  I have seen numerous pagan rituals held at events.  Shall I put a
> > crucifix on my arms?  Did I mean that there was no representation of a
> > pentagram in all of the midlle ages?  Of course not; I am not an idiot,
nor
> > am I undeucated in history.  But it was, as far as I know, never used as
a
> > heraldic symbol.  And that is, correct me if I am wrong, the subject
under
> > discussion.
> >
> > I rarely join in the discussions on the MerryRose because I am not an
active
> > participant, any longer, in the SCA.  But sometimes the need to respond
> > overwhelms me and I cannot resist it.  If anyone is offended by my
remarks,
> > take solace in the fact that the probabilities of your meeting me at an
> > event are very slim.  If just one of you stopps, thinks about what he/she
is
> > doing to the credibility of the SCA, and rethinks their position, then
all
> > of the flaming and (conversely) liberal head-shaking will be justified. 
I
> > have always espoused unpopular causes.  Ask Sir Corby.
> >
> > Affectionately,
> > Baron Werhener von Ingolstadt
> > Former Baron, Caer Mear
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