[MR] Authenticity (was pentograms)

[Baroness Gwynwilf]

As I stated before, 
1.the sca has tried to keep all religion out of the sca since it began.
2.pentagrams are not period 
3.they are offensive to most of the population, like the swastika. 
4.Last time I looked, the SCA was neither a religious organization, or a political one.

These are the valid reasons that they should still be banned. These are the rules the SCA was set out on and it has done well for over thirty years.

 Now let's examine why that this is being pushed forward? You can cry, let's get along all you want to, but the pagans have been pushing this for their own agenda, not for heraldic accuracy! 
Pagans have been accepted and allowed to conduct their own ceremonies and do whatever they wanted to within the SCA since I can remember. So it's not intolerance. In fact, I hung out with my pagan friends so much, many thought I was pagan. But we always had the written rule of no official religious ceremonies as part of the SCA, and like it or not, the rest of the world does not accept certain things, and pentagrams and swastikas, and lots of other symbols just hurt our organization. Look at Nestle corporation.

 I cannot let this go by without a fight. If this makes me un-cool or politically incorrect, so be it! Maybe I know more about the SCA than a lot of you do.  I have been in the SCA since the kingdom of Atlantia was formed, and I won't let any one group ruin it,no matter who they are.

 Religion is nothing but a spark that will burn this organization down. And if you all really cared about the SCA,you wouldn't do this.  So the more it's pushed, the more it becomes obvious that it is an agenda.   There are many pagan groups out there you can belong to, so why insist on using the SCA? It's because they know people are so afraid of being labeled "intolerant", that they can push this to get their way,  and yeah, why don't we let the inquisition in too? And then we can have real battles over religion. We'll have Christan households, Jewish households, pagans, Buddhists, Jehovah witness, Mormon..yea, all because we don't want to "offend anyone". Really, don't you know that's impossible where certain  things are concerned?  leave the SCA the way it was. 

 --- On Wed, 7/22/09, flonzy at hotmail.com <flonzy at hotmail.com> wrote:

> From: flonzy at hotmail.com <flonzy at hotmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [MR] Authenticity (was pentograms)
> To: "Steven Chang " <moondragn at gmail.com>, "Merryrose " <atlantia at atlantia.sca.org>
> Date: Wednesday, July 22, 2009, 12:41 PM
> I would like to know the motivation
> to put one of these symbols on ones device. From the outside
> all I see is a modern political statement which I find
> boorish. I am willing to hear some insight one motivation.
> ---------- Sent from AT&T's Wireless network using
> Mobile Email
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Steven Chang
> Sent: 7/22/2009 4:05:34 PM
> To: Merryrose
> Subject: Re: [MR] Authenticity (was pentograms)
> I understand your viewpoint to make the SCA more
> historically
> accurate. But you do realize that originally the founders
> of the SCA
> had no such ideas. In fact, they originally didn't even
> have naming
> rules in place nor any requirements for accurate heraldry.
> 
> It was the people that followed the founders that specified
> these rules.
> 
> Thats ok. But ultimately it is a balance of fun vs history.
> So
> religion should have NOTHING to do with the SCA. But you
> can't avoid
> that because Christianity took a big part of history. If
> you were not
> in the parts of the midieval world that involved
> Christianity, then
> Paganism had a big part of history as well.
> 
> So NEITHER should be ridiculed, they just need to be
> respected. What
> if someone decided to make Swastika's part of their device?
> It was a
> historical symbol used even back in the middle ages by the
> Chinese.
> What if someone took offense to that?
> 
> Let the heralds worry about the authenticity. If proof can
> be provided
> that it was used in heraldry then it is up to them to
> decide whether
> or not it SHOULD be used.
> 
> If you want to talk about authenticity, what about some of
> these
> cartoon characters on heraldry? They certainly did not have
> these
> particular characters back in the medieval times.
> 
> Whatever is decided, there can't be a double standard. If
> the idea is
> to avoid religious symbols, then crosses, which were common
> in
> heraldry, should be disallowed as well.  This is why
> this overturn was
> a good idea, because it does eliminate that particular
> double
> standard.
> 
> Certainly we already have guidelines in place for heraldry,
> and I
> think we should just let the heralds do what they know
> best.
> 
> Just remember this... This is a Society of Creative
> Anachronisms, not
> Society of unerring History.
> 
> On 7/22/09, Vernon And Susan Willet <willets at bellatlantic.net>
> wrote:
> > To my friends of the SCA, and to the Fair Lydia, in
> particular, Greetings.
> >
> > I see my post has touched a nerve and put the "cat
> among the pigeons", so to
> > speak.  If I seemed dismissive, well, I
> was.  Nor do I apologize for that.
> > We claim to be history oriented society but we embrace
> a large number of
> > non-historical concepts.  We are so liberal with
> our interpretation of
> > history that virtually anything goes.  Does
> anyone remember the "10 foot
> > rule".  I think His Majesty has put an effective
> end to that over the course
> > of his many reigns, at least on the field of
> combat.  Does anyone mourn for
> > freon can helms?  Or carpet armour?  Or
> plastic elf ears?  These are just
> > some of the things which make the legitimate
> reenactors ridcule the SCA.
> > The preponderance of overt pagans is another.
> >
> > If you choose to be a Modern Pagan, by all means, do
> what you will.  It is,
> > after all, the Whole of the Law.  But why should
> you bring it into a group
> > which already has issues with authenticity? 
> Shall I hold a Mass at an
> > event?  I have seen numerous pagan rituals held
> at events.  Shall I put a
> > crucifix on my arms?  Did I mean that there was
> no representation of a
> > pentagram in all of the midlle ages?  Of course
> not; I am not an idiot, nor
> > am I undeucated in history.  But it was, as far
> as I know, never used as a
> > heraldic symbol.  And that is, correct me if I am
> wrong, the subject under
> > discussion.
> >
> > I rarely join in the discussions on the MerryRose
> because I am not an active
> > participant, any longer, in the SCA.  But
> sometimes the need to respond
> > overwhelms me and I cannot resist it.  If anyone
> is offended by my remarks,
> > take solace in the fact that the probabilities of your
> meeting me at an
> > event are very slim.  If just one of you stopps,
> thinks about what he/she is
> > doing to the credibility of the SCA, and rethinks
> their position, then all
> > of the flaming and (conversely) liberal head-shaking
> will be justified.  I
> > have always espoused unpopular causes.  Ask Sir
> Corby.
> >
> > Affectionately,
> > Baron Werhener von Ingolstadt
> > Former Baron, Caer Mear
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