[MR] pentagrams in devices

Wed Jul 22 06:09:14 PDT 2009

 James, I am sorry you found offense in my words. This was not my intention. I was not being dismissive of history. I love history and strive to learn and share all I can. 

My reaction was focused on the "pagan nonsense" phrase of the original post. That phrase unnecessarily belittled a great swath of folks in our organization. The term pagan refers to people of an incredibly diverse set of beliefs and are no more nonsensical then any other group who follow a set of beliefs. 

Perhaps someone with a better library then I have might cite documentation that people the church identified as pagans existed well into our period particularly in the Germanic lands. 

No, the pentagram and pentacle were not their pagan symbols. These symbols were owned by the Christian church ... and used frequently in period Christian art. On heraldry? I don't believe so. But used in decorative formats? Yes.

So the motif is historical to our time. We allow quite a wide band of historical motifs in our registered heraldry much of which was never seen on a banner, shield or tourney field. Why should this period example of decorative design be held differently?

The other aspect of my post referred to the fact that while we strive toward the pre-1600 time frame, that is not all we are as an organization, especially in our heraldry. The College of Arms and our Laurel team are constantly in the position of finding balance between the desire for historical accuracy and current reality of membership. This is a group of people who voluntarily put a great deal of time in service and research that is regularly denigrated.

If the College were to hold strictly and singularly to what can be proven to have been displayed as heraldic design in period a great many devices carried proudly by members of this organization would be forfeit. 

The objection to this particular design stems from specific religious understandings ... or misunderstandings, usually held by the Christianchurch. The SCA is quite specifically a non-religious organization. How the design is used by members of the SCA and the meaning it has to those who seek to carry it is their personal business. 

In my opinion the College has simply and rightly removed a restriction based on a modern religious bias from our historical game.

Be well

~gise

-----Original Message-----
From: flonzy at hotmail.com  <flonzy at hotmail.com>
To: scribe0002 at aol.com  <scribe0002 at aol.com>; willets at bellatlantic.net  <willets at bellatlantic.net>
Cc: atlantia at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org  <atlantia at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org>
Sent: Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:38 am
Subject: Re: Re: [MR] pentagrams in devices

I find the dismissive attitude towards history in your post just as disturbing as the dismissive attitude of Pagan religion in the othe post.

Has anyone found the use of a pentangle or a pentagram in heraldry or are the examples of the symbol Christian church or peasant superstition related? I ask would the use of these symbols be a nod to history or ones modern life? Can we not leave the modern world behind for just a few hours?

I ask where is the courtesy in dismissing or guideline of pre 17th century while participating in the SCA?

James

----------
Sent from AT&T's Wireless network using Mobile Email

-----Original Message-----

From: scribe0002 at aol.com 

Sent: 7/22/2009 2:33:21 AM

To: willets at bellatlantic.net 

Cc: atlantia at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org 

Subject: Re: [MR] pentagrams in devices

?The tone of this post was very dismissive. Discussion is a good thing, disrespect is not. 

Quite a few folks on this list and in this organization identify as pagans. It is a recognized religious classification in the US. One of the facts that convinced Wreath to allow the change was the recent acceptance by the US Govt of the pagan symbols for headstones for fallen soldiers, sailors and marines who practice pagan beliefs.

I think we will all accept that our devices are more to us then strictly historical display. We are not pure historical re-enactment. 

We are an organization of courtesy and respect. Please, can we keep the tone of posts respectful?

Gisela vom Kreuzbach

?

?

-----Original Message-----

From: Vernon And Susan Willet <willets at bellatlantic.net>

To: Dave Montuori <damont at wolfstar.com>; nodecaf at nodecaf.com

Cc: atlantia at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org

Sent: Tue, Jul 21, 2009 10:14 pm

Subject: Re: [MR] pentagrams in devices

Just a comment here, on this pagan nonsense.? Being a pagan in medieval 

Europe was a very dicy proposition.? Best bet scenario entailed secret 

meetings of like minded individuals, furitive flitting about in the woods. 

Worst case brought the unwelcome attention of the Inquisition, with its 

attendant hotfoot.? Pagan displays are grotesquely out of period, anyway. 

Pagans date from 1890 or so; Aliester Crowley and the Golden Dawn.? Totally 

fabricated (See Crowleys "True Book of Lies".? There is no authentic 

history, otherwise, since Caesar slaughtered the Druids on the Isle of Man 

and they left no records.? Might as well add flourishes and curling banners 

to your hearaldry, if you are going to allow pentograms.? They are both 

victorian romance.? More history might quell some of the fantasy.? Just my 2 

pence.?

?

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "Dave Montuori" <damont at wolfstar.com>?

To: <nodecaf at nodecaf.com>?

Cc: <atlantia at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org>?

Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2009 7:58 PM?

Subject: Re: [MR] pentagrams in devices?

?

>> As a real practicing Pagan, I will say that it is with a sigh of relief?

>> that here in the SCA some have finally begun to see past religious?

>> prejudices.?

>?

> As one who has been a member of the College of Arms through the last?

> *three* times this issue came up, let me point out that it is *MUNDANE*?

> religious prejudices that needed to be overcome.?

>?

> The only reason the ban was upheld in the 1990s was that too many non-SCA?

> people in certain areas of the USA would have seen this as an?

> ANTI-religious symbol, which would have been horrid P.R. for the SCA which?

> already had a shaky reputation in some of those areas. In the past dozen?

> years quite a bit has changed, in this case for the better.?

>?

> Evan da Collaureo?

> Sackbut Herald?

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