[MR] the real petitions are now online

[Logan]

my comments are interspersed and preceded by >>>>>LOGAN

-----Original Message-----
From: atlantia-bounces at atlantia.sca.org
[mailto:atlantia-bounces at atlantia.sca.org] On Behalf Of Robert Van Rens
Sent: Friday, October 20, 2006 4:54 PM
To: atlantia at atlantia.sca.org
Subject: Re: [MR] the real petitions are now online

Your Grace, you had me in your corner up until this post.


>From: "Logan" <logan at ebonwoulfe.com>
>i understand your position completely.  i do, however, think there are some
>factors you might need to consider.  first, the rule changes were done by
>fiat.  meaning, laws that we deal with in the modern world where our 
>elected
>officials propose laws, those proposals are examined by lawyers and judges,
>then they go to the people for a vote (in a perfect world).  in this case 
>we
>had no real representation, no real review, just the opinion of one man who
>happens to think we need meaningless rules and that man happens to be in
>charge.  and, i will add, was not elected to be in charge but rather
>appointed the position.

The SCA is an autocracy, not a democracy.

Standards of the Marshallate are not laws; they are more akin to gov't 
regualtions, like the tax code; we don't elect those who create or enforce 
them, yet they restrict our lives and guide our conduct.

Unlike many of us, you are in a position to do something about it; win 
Crown.  A King's voice is rather louder than the rest.

>>>>>LOGAN
kings do not have the authority to violate society policy.  and, personally,
i don't think that the voice of a man that wins a tourney should be any
louder than that of all of the rest he fought.  this rule effects all of the
fighters in the sca.  some are ok with that, many are not.


>i don't know duke hrothgar and im sure he is a fine
>fellow.

Meaning you're not sure of this at all...:)

>>>>>LOGAN
no im not.  i am going on the assumption that most people in the sca are
fine fellows (and ladies).  this has been, at least, my experience.


>we are not empowered in the sca to force change.  the bod and the society
>officers are not chosen by our votes and we can not kick them out.  this is
>very frustrating when stupid rules are place on our heads.

Again, it's an autocracy, not a democracy.

>>>>>LOGAN
well its neither but i think that had probably been addressed already.


>
>for me, however, it is hard for me to refuse to follow the rules i am
>supposed to enforce.  i view marshals as safety officers only.

But the SCA doesn't, and since it's thier rules we are playing by...

>>>>>LOGAN
ummm.  no, its not the rules of the marshals we are playing by.  it's the
rules of the marshallate.  the body of men that comprise the marshallate
simply enforce those rules prior to us stepping on the field.  after that,
and we begin our contest, they are simply safety officers that may not call
blows.  


>as a safety
>officer i can not enforce a rule that i think is dumb and meaningless.

Fair enough.

>most marshals are
>under qualified, un-trained, and inexperienced as fighters to do their jobs
>well.

Again, become King.  Reform the marshallate.  Most of the marshalls I've 
known have been competent, dedicated, and vastly underappreciated.  As a 
former marshall, I take major exception to your assertion.

>>>>>LOGAN
you can only take exception to what ive said if it applies to you.  it very
well may and that's ok since i can not think of a better way to do it at the
moment.  and reform, as you suggest, is poorly done at best in the scant
amount of time one sits on the throne.  change is better done with
forethought and open candid discussion.  not, as it often the case, by fiat
and whim.  and that's where we are with these rules.  myself, and many
others, are working toward offering a firm and factual rebuttal of the whims
of the current society earl marshal.  if he refuses to hear us, that's cool.
it is, after all, his choice to do so.

>anyway, hope some of this makes sense and i applaud your willingness to
>enforce rules even if you don't understand them fully.  best of luck with
>your fighting and marshalling experiences.
>
>regards
>logan
>

I take significant exception to your characterization of marshalls as a 
group; I would suggest that you are absolutely wrong in dismissing them as a

group of feckless incompetents.  Certainly, there are some that are a danger

to themselves and others, but proportionately no more so than the fighters 
they oversee.

>>>>>LOGAN
i didn't dismiss the marshallate as a whole.  i simply commented on what i
perceive as a fact.  if the marshals in the sca had an increased competency
level (which can only be brought about via fighting experience or some level
of structured training, both of which aren't feasible) we wouldn't have so
many specific rules.  my commentary on the state of the marshallate is in
retort to the oft used excuse for these rules.  that being that we must make
rules to protect the lowest common denominator of fighters in the sca.  i
argue that the basis is more to dumb down the marshallate even more.  and
that, i think, is wrong.






I agree with you that the rules are pointless, but I have yet to hear a 
legitimate reason why they actully make combat LESS safe.  A hard elbow 
actually reduces you control of your shield?  Please.  Get a better elbow, 
or restrap our shield, or just bloody well learn to cope with it.  


>>>>>LOGAN
ok i will try.  maybe i will be able to learn to cope and all that stuff.
but that doesnt change the question of why.  why should i, and thousands of
other fighters, have to?  what service do we get from this?  why not allow
the continued practices we have safely embraced continue?  and, any time you
wish to debate fighting practices and things like shield control with me let
me know.  i mean, other than in a dismissive, uneducated, way.


Padding on the aventail increases the possibility of overheating?  Come
again?  If you really need to cool your body off, ditch the vambraces.  The
human body sheds more heat through the forearms and the head than anywhere
else...1/4 inch of padding on the inside of an aventail REALLY won't make
that big a difference.  If you are really in danger of overheating from this
change, then it's time to sit down and rethink your armour.

>>>>>LOGAN
hate to break it to you but the aventail rule does require padding around
your entire neck, which is the outlet for the heat your head cant shed
since, you know, its in a metal can.  and its evaporation from sweating that
allows the body to reduces its temperature.  i don't know how much your
forearms sweat and all but any time we block the ability of sweat to
evaporate our sweat we decrease how we shed heat.  and its not a problem for
me really.  my objection is to the uselessness of the rule.  many others
have commented on the heat issue (mainly in places much hotter than mild
atlantia).  there are a ton of sports related resources on the internet that
you can research to better understand the way heat is transferred.  let me
know if i can help you find those. 



The new rules are wrong because they are arbitrary and unneccessary, not 
because they make anyone less safe.  If we are to ultimately accept 
responsibility for our own safety, we need to be able to find constructiuve 
ways to cope with the rule changes while trying to get them rolled back.  
Civil disobedience isn't the way to convice an autocratic authority figure 
to renege on a decision; presenting rational, well-reasoned arguements might

be more effective.

>>>>>LOGAN
thanks for your support.  there is no disobedience involved (civil or
otherwise) with a petition.  so im not sure if you are debating the tactic
ive employed or simply making a point.  i can only assume the latter since
the former has no bearing on what we are involved with.  but thank you for
recognizing that we are presenting well reasoned arguments and rationales to
the sem and showing majority support via our petition.



As for resigning, what message does that send to Duke Hrothgar?  "Your 
Grace, since I harbor strong moral objections to your policies, and can't in

good conscience enforce them, I hereby resign from the marshallate, thereby 
eliminating any chance that you might actually be required to listen to what

I have to say."  Duke Hrothgar's response:  "Uh, good?  Thank you for 
sparing me the trouble of publicly slapping you down and thereby possibly 
creating a discussion whereby other viewpoints might be heard..."

>>>>>LOGAN
im sorry that you have such a shallow understanding of the way officers on a
society level work.  if you've been publicly slapped down by a superior
officer (which could only be a kingdom or society level) for simply
disagreeing with a policy decision they have made, you have been terribly
wronged.  hrothgar bears any authority to attempt, nor is in no position to,
slap me down publicly or privately.  to suggest he would abuse his position
as a servant to the people of the sca speaks very poorly of him.  but
perhaps you know him personally.  i surely don't.  the message, however, is
as i simply stated it.  i can not, in good conscience, enforce rules that i
find meaningless.  im not a hypocrite and can not put myself in a position
that forces me to be one.



As I said before, I still think you're ultimately right - the rules are not 
good ones.  I just think the justifications that are cited are weak and 
misleading, and I think that resigning in protest is the wrong move - it 
just eliminates voices that can be raised in protest.

>>>>>LOGAN
my voice has not been diminished at all.  my opinion carries as much as any
other fighter, and concerned non fighter, in the game.  my experience of 15
years as a marshal only adds to that voice.  my personal conviction and
decision to resign only displays my resolve.  the justifications are many
and many are sound.  some only apply to a scant few individuals.  this
doesnt make them weak of misleading, only not as common.  but im not arguing
those, i only sought some justification for the new rules.  we got none, and
that is the foundation of the protest.


regards
logan

Eadric the Potter
getting off my soapbox