[MR] the real petitions are now online

[Logan]

thanks for responding adriana,

i understand your position completely.  i do, however, think there are some
factors you might need to consider.  first, the rule changes were done by
fiat.  meaning, laws that we deal with in the modern world where our elected
officials propose laws, those proposals are examined by lawyers and judges,
then they go to the people for a vote (in a perfect world).  in this case we
had no real representation, no real review, just the opinion of one man who
happens to think we need meaningless rules and that man happens to be in
charge.  and, i will add, was not elected to be in charge but rather
appointed the position.  i don't know duke hrothgar and im sure he is a fine
fellow.  however, it is foolish to make rules and laws simply because you
can.

in this case there are many kingdoms that have fought with naked shield
elbows for decades.  that's thousands of men at arms fighting hundreds of
thousands of fights.  with no injuries due to their elbows not being
redundantly covered.  sure there are plenty of shields that do not
adequately protect the wearers shield arm elbow.  and there are plenty that
do.  we are just asking that we be allowed to continue this very safe, very
proven practice.  the sem thinks, and that's a key word, thinks that do to
so may cause an injury one day.  this is the exact same thing with
aventails.  so he inches us closer and closer to wearing a mattress around
our bodies and fighting with pillows.  that is not the spirit of a rough
sport.

so why are there some marshals that will simply ignore these rules?  well, i
guess for the same reason mrs parks sat in the front of the bus.  i mean a
rule is a rule and all but she felt strongly enough that this was a dumb
rule that she decided to ignore it.  now i know this is no human rights
level situation of course.  but it does display the mindset that if its
wrong its wrong.  

we are not empowered in the sca to force change.  the bod and the society
officers are not chosen by our votes and we can not kick them out.  this is
very frustrating when stupid rules are place on our heads.

for me, however, it is hard for me to refuse to follow the rules i am
supposed to enforce.  i view marshals as safety officers only.  as a safety
officer i can not enforce a rule that i think is dumb and meaningless.  i
can look at a guys shield and determine if his elbow is adequately covered
by it or not.  the sem says the Marshallate is too inept to make such a
determination.  so he has chosen to dumb down the rules to remove the
responsibility of making such determinations from his marshals. ive met a
lot of marshals in my years and i have to agree with him.  most marshals are
under qualified, un-trained, and inexperienced as fighters to do their jobs
well. bless their hearts for volunteering and all but that doesnt change
those facts.  but whats next?  whats the next rule passed on to us by fiat
that will serve nobody?

there are a number of reasons that have been cited as to why its unsafe to
wear an elbow behind some shields (lack of control for me) and wearing
redundant throat protection (heat build up for a lot of people, actual neck
injury for me since i roll my head side to side at an extreme range).  and
again, no reports of any injuries.  not to mention, 1/4" of padding under
maille is so ridiculously little as to have no real effect, so why have it.

and finally, we are opening the world of sca sport combat up to more
litigation.  as we keep adding rules on top of rules we give this smoke
screen that says our sport is safe.  well, you can never guarantee safety in
anything.  but as long as we keep writing rules that are so micro-specific
as we have over the last decade we give that impression.  and that
impression starts with our horrid armour inspections where marshals put
their hands on people and push on armours and have people bend their bodies
around only to give them a papal blessing when its all over.  we are setting
expectations of safety that are foolish.  better to ask the fighter if he is
wearing everything that is required, if he understands the nature of sca
sport combat, if he feels safe and secure in his armour.  then wish him luck
and send him on his way.  and the rules should list what needs to be covered
and then give some suggestions.  like the shield elbow.  it needs to be
covered during combat to protect it from impact.  that can be done by means
of a hard elbow or, in some cases, a strapped shield.  

anyway, hope some of this makes sense and i applaud your willingness to
enforce rules even if you don't understand them fully.  best of luck with
your fighting and marshalling experiences.

regards
logan


-----Original Message-----
From: atlantia-bounces at atlantia.sca.org
[mailto:atlantia-bounces at atlantia.sca.org] On Behalf Of Kelly Keck
Sent: Friday, October 20, 2006 9:39 AM
Cc: atlantia at atlantia.sca.org
Subject: Re: [MR] the real petitions are now online

I am sorry to hear that there are marshals who intend to ignore these new
rules.  I myself am probably too new a fighter and am *certainly* too new a
marshal (authorized fighter for two years and a bit, warranted marshal for
less than a month) to be the best judge of whether these rules are necessary
or are overkill.

But, I feel very strongly that a marshal shouldn't pick and choose which
rules they want to enforce.  There's a responsibilty to enforce the rules as
they're written, not as you wish they were written; otherwise, why have
rules at all?

If there's a rule that you feel you absolutely cannot in good conscience
enforce, I think it's far more honorable to do what Duke Logan has done and
resign than to enforce the rules selectively.  That comes with its own set
of problems, but seems far better than ignoring the new rules.

If it's something one feels strongly about but not to the extent that it's
worth resigning over, I'd encourage those people to sign the petition, write
to the BOD and the SEM, but, once it takes effect, to enforce the rules and
follow them until and unless they change.

For those who are opposed to this, I think that choosing not to enforce the
rules could severely undermine their credibility and actually work against
getting any changes through.  Will the SEM and the BOD really listen to
people, especially marshals, who blatantly disregard the rules?  It seems
like a much stronger position to argue for their removal but enforce them
unless that happens.

Both petitions mention that requiring elbow protection under a shield and
padding under an aventail can actually lessen the safety of fighters.  I'm
interested in hearing about why that is.  Is it simply that padding an
otherwise unsafe aventail won't help (as the petition states), and will give
that fighter a false sense of security, or are there other problems?

Duke Logan, thank you very much for the link to the petition and for making
the list aware of this issue.

YIS,
Adriana Michaels

On 10/20/06, Logan <logan at ebonwoulfe.com> wrote:
>
> every marshal that has expressed an opinion to me personally regarding
> these
> rules has stated plainly that they will ignore them.  not just atlantians,
> in fact mostly not atlantians.  i never said atlantian marshals.  in fact,
> i
> have put in my letter of resignation as a marshal of over 15 years due on
> the day these rules are to be enforced.  i simply can not enforce
> senseless
> rules and walk around as a marshal.
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