[MR] How hard does it hit?

[Walter W Triplette]

wow, that is quite a response to a simple mathematical problem, my friend. 
maybe if you take an aspirin, sit in an easy chair and put your feet up for 
a while you will feel better.

i'm not sure what part of my problem set off your alarm bells, but since it 
seems to be important to you, i will try to give a reason for my purely 
abstract question.
there is no empirical data in the sca concerning the potential for injury 
from any weapon. i intend to develop a data base. this will start from basic 
indisputable facts, such as the abstract question i presented to sca 
engineers.i have no dog in this hunt. i have no theory that i am trying to 
prove or disprove.

when the time comes that we might have assimilated sufficient data to form 
some theory concerning what might really happen in a rapier fight, you would 
be one of the people i would consult due to your extraordinary depth of 
experience in sword play.

before submitting the problem to the merry rose to check my figures, i 
indeed weighed complete weapons of nearly equal flexibility, trying to 
reduce the number of variables involved. i have done this kind of work 
before.

to really answer your question, (this means a boring history section is 
approaching, so delete now to avoid it) simply look at the case for sca 
protective gear. the four layers of trigger requirement for protection, and 
the absurd foil blade hand held punch test was finally put to rest because 
we got empirical data to fashion a proper test, and made a proper standard.
i submitted various fabrics to be tested on the fie dynamometer in france so 
that we in the sca could really know the facts on protection.these tests 
were very expensive, running into the thousands of dollars, which i paid for 
from my pocket. oddly, the sca itself did not ever bother to conduct any 
tests.
the results showed that four layers of trigger fabric gives a resistance of 
488 newtons, two layers of 13.5 ounce cotton twill is 586 to 660, depending 
on the weave, one layer of spectra is 860, and several dozen other fabrics 
we tested gave other results i won't bore you with.with this information 
greg stauf and some of his friends were able to develop the current sca 
armor standards and the drop tester.

this is all swell, but the more interesting question is how did the fie know 
to do these tests?
first, they tested the speed of a fencer's attack. after an immense amount 
of data was recorded,  a speed of three meters per second was established as 
a reasonable maximum. two fencers therefore close at a 6m per second speed.
but how about the projectile used in the dynamometer? they collected 
thousand of broken blades, and found that a 3 mm rod with a 120 degree 
pyramidal point was about as bad as a break as was likely to happen.

hence the fie test for clothing was established.

this took a lot of work, starting with some guy going around and fishing 
broken blades out of the trash  cans at the world championships and taking 
them home for inspection.
at this level of the investigation, i am doing the work of the trash can 
guy, not very exciting, but ya gotta start somewhere.

the data might point to the conclusion that the weapons used in combat are 
irrelevant, and it might lead elsewhere. until we have some data, however, 
we have nothing but opinion, and who is to say who's opinion is proper if 
there are no facts? indeed, some facts will have more relevance than others, 
but the more factual info we have, the better understanding we will have.

if you feel that you have a better idea of how to collect data on this or 
any other rapier related subject, please take action accordingly. if i may 
be of service in your study, please let me know and i will do the best i can 
to lead, follow, or get out of the way.

in service,
rufus


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Aedan Aylwyn" <aedan at mindspring.com>
To: <atlantia at atlantia.sca.org>
Sent: Sunday, November 26, 2006 7:19 PM
Subject: Re: [MR] How hard does it hit?


>> A challenge for atlantia's esteemed engineers, please.  We've
>> been talking about the different weapon blades
>> (rapier/schlager vs foil/epee) and how hard each hits when
>> striking it's target.
>
> Pardon the bluntness, but I think this is a fool's arguement.  You can 
> spin
> this any way you want, one blade category doesn't hit "harder" than 
> another.
> Or "softer" for that matter, especially when the categories are so broad.
> Next thing you know, someone will start asking which is safer or is that
> where you were headed?
>
> You want to look at the blade?  How stiff is it?  That will have a huge
> impact on the "hardness" of the hit (whatever you mean by "hard").  Epee's
> used to be generally springier and more likely to flex than schlagers, 
> while
> foils were even lighter than epees.  But now are you looking at a #5 dry
> practice epee?  Or the much stiffer "SCA" epees that you designed?  Ditto
> for foils.  And schlagers verus Del Tins versus Hanweis versus Safeflex
> versus <insert new blade here>?  You have all different ranges of 
> stiffness
> in *every* blade category.
>
> When you state an epee weights 1 lb versus 2 lbs for a heavy rapier blade,
> are you just weighing the blade? Or is some of that weight the guard?  And
> why a shlager?  Why not one of the more accurate rapier simulators that 
> are
> out now?  If you want to do some sort of comparison, you need to do apples
> to apples and mount both blades in the same guard.  A simple cross hilt
> versus a heavy pappenheimer guard will make much more of a difference in
> overall weight than the difference in blade weight.
>
> Next issue, the tip.  Again, you have these assumptions of different tip
> sizes that just isn't accurate.  Espcially with the stiffer epees out 
> there
> now, the buttons tend to be larger.  I see as many epees with bird blunts 
> as
> I do with "epee" tips althought I will say I haven't see the reverse.  But 
> I
> have seen many different varieties of blunt used on heavy rapiers, 
> including
> nothing but tool tip, and leather covered spent brass shell casings.
>
> Lastly, the actions of the fighter affect the "hardness" of the blow as 
> much
> if not more than the blade used.  I can thug someone with a foil.  I can
> deliver feather touches with a 45" bated rapier.  What's the point?
>
> Grumpily,
> Aedan
>
> ----------
> Master Aedan Aylwyn, Provost, OP                 Caer Mear, Atlantia
> Email: aedan (at) mindspring.com                Royal Bad Influence -
> Retired
> Academie d'Espee: http://www.mindspring.com/~aedan
> * * Audentes fortuna iuvat. * *
>
>
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