[MR] On Titles

[Michael Houghton]

Howdy!

On Wed, Apr 26, 2006 at 10:32:19AM -0700, Syr Justus de Tyre wrote:
> 
[snip]
> 
>  However, when you take the next big step, and for most folks reach the
> ultimate rank in this game, you retain your old title. At least in some
> places, which leads me to my next point. 
> 
> Master Herveus wrote: 
> 
> "I don't think it is unrealistic to ask that it not be made *worse* by
> adding clearly modern elements."
> 
> We are not adding anything, but rather adopting a tradition that has
> been around for at least two decades. Honorable Lord is certainly not a
> "clearly modern element” Chief executive officer and "Feast-o-Crat" are
> clearly modern elements. 

Ummm... "The Honorable..." is a Victorian creation. It is clearly modern
in the sense that it more than amply postdates 1600. 
> 
>    Speaking frankly, our rank structure and award system are hopelessly
> inaccurate. Since when does a Knight outrank a Lord? Did anyone in the
> Middle Ages ever become entitled for building a wooden box? Or receive
> a peerage for service? landless Counts and Dukes? 

The deficiencies are legion and well known. However, it does not justify
making it worse by consciously adding additional ahistoric elements. 
>  
>  There is also a wide and vast variation of titles used throughout the
> 1000+ years we, cover. Even if you were to pick a specific time and
> place, many titles and honorifics were not set in stone.   

This is true. One part of addressing this concern is the numerous lists of
alternate titles and forms of address. Some of the lists are pretty bad;
some of the lists for certain cultures have been painstakingly revised to
try to map the SCA concepts to culture-appropriate terms. The situation
with GoA styles doesn't have culture-appropriate terms to map to.
> 
>  The basic fact that our award system is based on merit, and not birth
> or wealth is a glaring anachronism. We award people for things we value
> today, service, artistic ability, and success on the battlefield*.
> (*Regardless of noble birth) 

Period exemplars of meritorious advances in station have been called out
in a number of cultures, although I don't have citations to hand. I'm 
not sure how this is relevant to the question of how to address someone
with a GoA, though.
> 
>   Our award system is for “us” it shouldn’t play a factor in teaching
> or at demos. So yes there should be a differentiation between the Three
> major award levels, AoA, GoA, and Patent level.  Right now the GoA’s
> really are getting short shrift. 
> 
> By the way on usage:  The full title "Honorable Lord/Lady" is only used
> in times of high ceremony, for example on being called in to court or
> at major tournaments. You don't need to address someone with their full
> title in polite conversation, "Hello Honorable Lord so and so" doesn't
> exactly "flow"
>   Lord or Lady is still appropriate, as it is for all ranks in the
> society. 

I have observed people introducing themselves as "The Honorable...",
and it is not uncommon to see people prefixing their name with "THL",
which amounts to the same thing. I see the latter in print quite often.

I'd be a lot less resistant to devising diverse styles for the various
levels if those levels were grounded in period practics. As we all
know, however, they, like many other core practices, are a legacy of
decisions made way back when, when we were more likely to be making 
stuff up as we went along (and I don't mean that harshly). I do stand
against deliberately ignoring what we now know in order to introduce
additional ahistoric practices. 
> 
>  I personally wouldn’t mind seeing more differentiation between some of
> our titles, landed and landless barons for examole, but that is another
> battle. 
> 
It's an extension of the same one. However, you might actually
find evidence for landless nobility along side landed nobility
in certain times and places. That might provide a period basis
for making a distinction between landed and court baronage.

yours,
Herveus
-- 
Michael and MJ Houghton | Herveus d'Ormonde and Megan O'Donnelly
herveus at radix.net       | White Wolf and the Phoenix narrowwares
Bowie, MD, USA          | http://whitewolfandphoenix.com 
Proud member of the SCA Internet Whitewash Squad