[MR] The SCA as a "joke"
logan
dukelogan at bellsouth.net
Tue Oct 28 18:52:19 PST 2003
im done repeating myself over and over. but i will address this since
herveus, yet again, tries to be so eloquent yet misses the point. my
comments are interspersed and preceded by >>>>>LOGAN
-----Original Message-----
From: atlantia-bounces at atlantia.sca.org
[mailto:atlantia-bounces at atlantia.sca.org] On Behalf Of Michael Houghton
Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2003 3:16 PM
To: atlantia at atlantia.sca.org
Subject: Re: [MR] The SCA as a "joke"
Howdy!
On Tue, Oct 28, 2003 at 11:44:09AM -0500, logan wrote:
> apparently you did not read what i wrote. i will attempt to
> summarize.
>
> "a reasonable attempt" is the battle cry of people, such as yourself,
> that disagree with what i have said. first, i have never suggested
> that the sca become a strictly authentic organization. never. i have
> suggested that we make, uh oh, a "reasonable attempt". now tell me
> what attempt at pre 1600 items are exposed plastic barrels, gorms
> nylon coleman chair, blue jeans, tennis shoes, or anything else that i
> specifically have mentioned? there is no attempt at all.
I question not your motivation, but your methods. To me, you appear to be
dictating one way of reducing modernity. I find the stick unappealing. It
occurs to me that one could give positive encouragement to work toward that
end instead of trying to suppress by legislation.
>>>>>LOGAN
again, the law that her grace isabel and i signed into existence does
nothing more than provide a penalty for violating the charter that the sca
is founded on. tennis shoes do not belong in the sca (unless, of course,
they are a medical necessity). herveus please explain to me how i am wrong
in that? you may insert whatever modern appliance you wish in place of
tennis shoes.
[snip freon can, etc]
>
> and, i never said that the sca was a joke. what i said was the
> statement that the sca is a living history group is a joke. the sca
> claims, in its charter, that it is a living history group, an
> educational group and it requires its participants to make a
> "reasonable attempt". yet it fails at all of these things and there
> is, for some bizarre reason, an effort to ignore those simple
> requirements.
The blurb at the top of <http://www.sca.org> says:
The Society for Creative Anachronism (SCA) is an international
organization dedicated to researching and re-creating pre-17th-century
European history. All persons interested in such study are invited to
use these pages to obtain information about the SCA.
This does not say "living history" -- a phrase with quite different
semantics. The By-Laws speak of re-creation as one of the purposes; again a
different meaning.
Corpora II.B says:
B. Requirements for Participants at Society events
Anyone may attend Society events provided he or she wears an attempt at
pre-17th century clothing, conforms to the provisions in Corpora, and
complies with any other requirements (such as site fees or waivers)
which may be imposed. At business meetings and informal classes, the
requirement to wear pre-17th century dress may be waived. All
participants are expected to behave as ladies or gentlemen.
This only requires "an attempt". Not a "reasonable attempt". It's a real low
bar, and I'll freely concede that some people's attempt is hard to see.
However, this only speaks to clothing. Not furniture. Not tents.
>>>>>LOGAN
sorry to hear that your bar has no bottom and that blue jeans are an
attempt. and our law only covers clothing if you really want to boil it
down. it directly addresses the gear on your body and not the equipment you
use on the field. it says nothing about tents or furniture. it is
convenient to bring that into your argument but you are mixing facts with
convenience attempts to discredit the author. and it clearly states living
history (my point) in the organizational handbook which can be found at the
same site you use to bolster your opinion. do not argue with me over this
argue with the text of that document. specifically page seven paragraph
two. ( http://sca.org/docs/govdocs.pdf#page=7 . i will quote the pertinent
passage and argue that the "aspects of the life and culture of the landed
nobility in europe prior to 1600 ce." encompasses much more than some
clothing. but that is neither here nor there in regards to the law.
************BEGIN COPY*****************
As a living history group, the Society provides an environment in which
members can recreate various aspects of the culture and technology of the
period, as well as doing more traditional historical research. We sponsor
events such as tournaments and feasts where members dress in clothing styles
worn in the middle Ages and Renaissance, and participate in activities based
on the civil and martial skills of the period. These activities recreate
aspects of the life and culture of the landed nobility in Europe prior to
1600 CE. The dress, pastimes, and above all the chivalric ideals of the
period serve to unify our events and activities.
> sorry to hear that you had some problems with hospitality in your
> area. not sure that has anything to do with this topic though.
>
>
>
> look, it boils down to a few simple facts. one of those is that so
> many people in the sca like to react emotionally to things they do
> not, on the surface, agree with. they attack the author and not the
> message. to date a few people have disagreed with what i have said on
> this topic and every one of them has made claims about me wanting to
> have everyone live up to my level of authenticity, or that i expect
> exact period techniques and materials. obviously none of them have
> actually read what i have written. not a surprise, its fairly common.
> the big thing that is lacking in all of these retorts is an argument
> against what i have suggested. i have only suggested that the rules
> that are in place in the charter of the sca be followed. why there
> are people that take the option to join an organization and then
> refuse to follow its rules is beyond me. do you guys smoke in non
> smoking sections? of course not. just because there is no fear of
> being thrown out of an event for drinking out of a mello yello bottle
> doesnt mean we should spit on or ignore the rules. that is the point.
> not what i want to see. frankly it doesnt really matter to me and its
> not my problem any longer. i am only addressing it because i signed a
> check a few months ago and i support what we did.
That's not a productive response. It dismisses the very real concerns that
have been articulated -- articulated in responses that spoke to the
substance of the issue, not to the author. Arguments have been raised that
question the policy and show how it has (perhaps) unintended effects.
>>>>>LOGAN
the real concerns? oh, you mean those that claim that modern appliances
such as blue jeans and coleman chairs are requirements because they have no
tools, talents applicable (in this case woodworking or sewing specifically),
or money to do it right? have you not paid attention to the offers to
provide all of these things? did you miss my detailed responses about the
cost comparison of a single coleman chair (in charlotte they run $25) to a
set of benches and a table that all fold down that i have made for less?
and the offers i have made to teach people how to do them? or the complete
set of period styled armor that sir andreas has offered (many times
actually) to teach people how to make for under $100? sorry, these are all
attainable with some effort. i have yet to hear from a hockey glove wearing
pole arm fighter sad tales of asking for help to get appropriate gear only
to be scoffed at by everyone or ignored by those that know how to help. i
have offered to do all of the work of creating, for example, seating for
well over a dozen people in the last year. no takers. these are people
that have argued that modern seating is their only alternative and that
without modern seating they simply can not function in the sca. cant cover
it, cant be bothered to change it, nothing. sure a few simply live too far
away to make a trip to charlotte realistic. but ive made the offers as have
others. so whats the excuse?
\
Further, you assert that the rules of the SCA say things that I have not
been able to discover, and that would be inconsistent with the citations I
have given. Pray show where in the governing documents it actually says what
you claim it says.
>>>>>LOGAN
i have, time and time and time again, supplied the text of the scas
organizational handbook. specifically the section titled "an introduction
to the sca". i am sorry if that is not enough but it tells me a very clear
tale of what this organization claims to be. that, is all i have argued
for.
You complain about being attacked as author, yet you turn around and return
the favore wholesale.
>>>>>LOGAN
huh, show me one example.
> so please, if anyone else wishes to step up and trumpet the greatness
> of coleman chairs or the impossibility of taking the field in anything
> but exposed plastic and tennis shoes also include why you think its ok
> to refuse to follow the rules. perhaps the rules should be changed.
> until they are why should you (general statement) be above them? few
> other organizations would cater to such active disregard.
The "rules" (at least at the corporate level) do not forbid any of these
things. I do not claim that they should be encouraged, but trying to
legislate them out of the game is a dangerous path to take, and one which
will (has?) create needless strife.
>>>>>LOGAN
blue jeans are not an attempt no matter what color you spray paint it. the
rules say an attempt, tennis shoes are not an attempt no matter what color
glasses you put on. you disagree. but i fail to see how you can support
that.
I'm all for improving the ambiance. I'm not for trying to formally turn the
SCA into a high-authenticity organization. I'll support getting people to
disguise or discard modernities by positive encouragement. It doesn't work
on every one, but it pisses off far fewer people.
If I am faced with a demand that I do something, I am less likely to go the
extra mile to do it really well; I'll be more likely to do just enough to
get by, or a bit less if I can. I've got things I do prefer to do, and I'd
rather not have my limited resources frittered away on impositions. Make it
easy.
>>>>>LOGAN
well we obviously have different ideals and ideas. i try to do things to
the best of my ability. i follow the rules as they are laid out. and, when
i join any kind of organization voluntarily i try to excel not just "get
by". i agree that the sca is not the place for the ultra authenticity. i
have never suggested it should be. if you want ultra authenticity there are
other places one should play. if you want anything goes as long as it makes
it easy i dont think the sca is the right place either. there are, indeed,
other places one should play.
and with that i am done. unless something new or relevant appears i have
said all i care to on this subject. i have expressed my position on this
and dont feel the need to repeat the same thing over and over again. i
would also like to remind people that we did a field test at assessment
battles this year and nearly 95% of the fighters on the field passed the
laws that are to be enforced dec 1. those that failed (myself being one of
them) almost all failed because of our footwear. the easiest fix of them
all! so im sorry but chicken little was wrong. the sky is not on its way
down and the end of sca combat is surely not around the corner. a few guys
had to cover up their lacrosse elbows and one guy needed to take off the
football shoulder pads (or at least cover them although that would still
look rather unusual). thats it nothing big nothing bad not the dogs and cats
sleeping together stuff. but i guess there will always be people that
simply dont care what they look like or what the rules say. shame really.
logan
yours,
Herveus
--
Michael and MJ Houghton | Herveus d'Ormonde and Megan O'Donnelly
herveus at radix.net | White Wolf and the Phoenix
Bowie, MD, USA | Tablet and Inkle bands, and other stuff
| http://www.radix.net/~herveus/
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