[MR] curiosity plastic armor question

[logan]

i still dont get it.  sigh.

kydex is a blatantly modern material, is grossly expensive, and must be
disguised by dec 1st.  most plastics used for sca combat are abs (often
mis-identified as kydex), polyethylene and high density polyethylene.
uncovered they look, well, like plastic.

gorm if you are going to make comparisons please make them equitable.  many
arts and sciences competitions have parameters, guidelines or rules.  they
are not, however, combat.  different rules apply to different aspects of the
sca.  the rules for participation on the field are in place and, like all
rules, are to be adhered to.

no one has a right to fight in sca sport combat.  there are rules governing
each aspect of that competition.  if they are not followed you can not
participate.  if covering up blatantly modern materials is too much for
someone to be bothered with then they should sit down or find something else
to participate in that requires less effort.  

since this first came into public light over a year ago there has really
been only a few comments against the rule clarification.  and most of those
from people that would like to suggest that without plastic nobody can
fight, especially new people.  time and time again that has been disproved.
they also try to suggest it takes too much skill to produce armor out of
anything other than plastic.  also proven false over and over.  then they
say it takes too many tools to make armor out of period styled materials.
again, false.  leather takes the fewest.  then there is the "it costs money"
attempt usually coupled with the "i am a poor student that cant afford food"
line on top.  priorities out of line but, nonetheless, also proven to be
incorrect.

gorm, let me ask you why you seem to be so against requiring people to
follow the rules that the charter of the sca has had in place for so many
years that are now clearly defined in atlantia.  in order to attend an event
you are expected to behave a certain way and to dress a certain way.  do you
suggest that participating on the field somehow makes one immune to those
requirements?  or do the requirements for dress only apply to those sitting
around the field (in their coleman chairs)?  clearly there is no separation
made yet some people suggest that there is too much effort in making
themselves presentable on the field.

and, as has been shown over and over and over again, its not newbies that
this targets.  i have put dozens of guys on the field over the last dozen
years and none of them in plastic exposed armor, or any blatantly modern
materials exposed.  half my kit is modern materials but its all covered
(except my footwear currently).  new fighters get put into bad armor because
its been tolerated for too long.  they should be taught better and, now,
will be.  

but lets just take the anti effort logic and apply it elsewhere.  if any
material is acceptable on the field and its exposure is good and proper then
it logically would allow someone to wear a big nylon parka.  we arent
talking about materials here as the new law allows for the inclusion of
exposed modern materials that are found to be beneficial (such as the
lamellar kits that noble plastics has created) but simply the visual effect.
so while its not against the charter of the sca to wear polyester (i assume
thats not period) it is to wear a multi colored bikini (although we tolerate
chain maille bikinis for some reason).  the same example can be given to
aluminum.  although aluminum is a period material it wasnt used for armor
(too expensive to refine) but we allow it on the field since it looks like,
well, metal.  this same logic taken to an extreme would also allow motocross
gear to be worn as armor.  so why is it most everyone would take issue with
someone in a wetsuit at an event but a few of them think a guy in blue
plastic with blue jeans and tennis shoes on is perfectly acceptable?

the end result is this, the sca as a living history organization is a joke.
the sca is, and has been for some time, a social club were some people dress
up.  but thats not what the charter of the organization says.  the
unfortunate thing is that there are many people that actually care about
studying the middle ages and participating in an organization that espouses
to a better role model.  granted there are some people that like to play
power struggle and stab "friends" through the heart but, for the most part,
people in the sca like the ideals of courtesy.  when people walk by and see
a group of guys in the park in plastic armor with blue jeans and tennis
shoes on whacking at one another with sticks and they ask whats going on
they are expected to believe that these are people interested in the
medieval age?  no wonder they go to renn fairs.  if we cant even fool those
that dont know better whats the point in pretending like we care or that we
are trying?

there are many truly talented people in the sca that do the research, and
create the displays and put forth the effort to make the dream of the sca a
reality.  sadly, they are becoming the minority to those that dont care for
effort and feel like its perfectly ok as long as its convenient.  thats very
sad indeed.  sure there are many aspects of what is done in the sca that
could be better.  but thats no reason to fight the desire for improvement
simply because it is directed at your sacred cow (general statement).

my only interest in this is to be able to keep producing fighters and to
make sure that my current students comply and set a higher example.  they
already do in many ways and they will all comply with the rules of the earl
marshals office and the laws of the kingdom.  where will it end you ask?  i
have no way of knowing.  but i hope that the sca becomes a better place
because of the effort.

regards
logan

-----Original Message-----
From: atlantia-bounces at atlantia.sca.org
[mailto:atlantia-bounces at atlantia.sca.org] On Behalf Of Gorm of Berra
Sent: Friday, October 24, 2003 7:51 PM
To: atlantia at atlantia.sca.org
Subject: Re: [MR] curiosity plastic armor question


OKay, time for the lone voice in the wilderness to step up...

Assuming you count kydex as plastic (it's certainly discriminated against 
in the new rules, so it should count, IMO), I always have, and still do.

And I like it, and I intend to continue using it.

Some would say it goes against "The Spirit of the SCA", I would say 
hogwash.  The wonderful thing about the SCA is that members (up until 37 
days from now) have never been required to be put in the position of saying 
"Your effort isn't good enough to compete" before.

If I want to enter my metalcasting in an A&S competition for castings, even 
though the sprue is roughly cut, the pattern I copied is from 1850, and my 
documentation amounts to "I saw this on DiY", noone will say "I'm sorry, 
Gorm, you can't enter".

I won't win (almost certainly), and the comments I get might be harsh, but 
I *can* enter, I *can* learn, and it is possible that the experience will 
motivate me to get better.

Now, however, our Marshals are being forced to make that 
decision.  Admittedly, the rule is allegedly easy to comply 
with...*now*.  What will tomorrow bring?  Duke Logan himself admitted that 
he chose to do this because it seemed to be low hanging fruit in an area 
that offended him.

I'm offended by lousy Heraldic display...if I win Crown, can I ban all 
nonregistered Heraldry?

My armor isn't the prettiest on the field.  At one time, I had gauntlets 
that were, to put it mildly, butt ugly.

I don't focus on heavy fighting, I do it as exercise and to learn.

People say that we should give newbies slack, but those who want to stick 
around should get better stuff.  That's fine, but when do you stop being a 
newbie?

Alternatively, why not say "Anyone can fight, but if you want to get 
recognized for fighting (say, becoming a Sea Stag, or a Knight) you need to 
not only be the hot stick, but also have kit that is decently period".

Or have the Knights (where apparently this entire thing developed) say 
"Hmmm, you're squire material, but your kit needs to be upgraded to show 
you're serious before I take you as a squire"

Or award the prizes for the tournaments not to the person who can throw the 
hardest shot, but to the person who exemplifies period fighting styles 
best, including his/her kit?

Heavy fighting has almost nothing to do with Medieval combat.  The 
predominant style on this Coast was invented in the 1970's.

Or, start doing rules that use "Armor as worn".  Got full gothic 
plate?  Cool, you're immune to singlehanded sword blows that strike the 
plate.  Got boiled leather and chain?  Alright, you're protected against 
the first blow, but the second one kills you.  Got SCA minimum made out of 
kydex?  Sorry dude, no calling blows "light" for you, you're effectively 
fighting in a tunic and pants, any contact will cut.

(These would take tweaking, certainly, but it's an idea, as opposed to 
"Everyone has to throw a tunic over it")

Okay, I understand the desire to make things better, but there were *so* 
many other possible ways this could have been done.  The way that was 
chosen is, to put it mildly, ill-chosen.  It won't do anything to boost our 
numbers, and if anything, it may reduce them.  It won't result in better 
armor, just more metal, or more swede covering kydex.  That isn't helping.

I only hope I'm wrong.

At 10:31 AM 10/24/2003 -0700, Becky McEllistrem wrote:
>For those people who started with plastic armor, how
>many tourneys did you actually fight with it before
>you decided you wanted something stronger?

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