[MR] cheap armor

[logan]

my comments are interspersed and preceded by >>>>>LOGAN

-----Original Message-----
From: atlantia-bounces at atlantia.sca.org
[mailto:atlantia-bounces at atlantia.sca.org] On Behalf Of Thomas E. Jackson Jr
Sent: Thursday, October 23, 2003 10:54 PM
To: The Merry Rose
Subject: Re: [MR] cheap armor


Greetings Duke Logan!
I will agree that almost all plastic armour looks attrocious (except the
really well done versions of Japanese armour I have seen), but you can't
beat the price of plastic as opposed to leather or steel. 

>>>>>LOGAN
no, you cant beat the price, i can and do often.  for the sake of discussion
we need to focus on facts.  you stating that i can not beat the price of
plastic is, indeed, incorrect.  i would also point out that most of the
samurai kits on the field look horrid.  90%+ at that.  the stuff noble
plastics puts out, for example, looks incredible.  but their stuff is the
exception and hardly the norm.  and a proper bushido style kits need not be
made out of plastic.  it can be made of metal and look very very good.
check out lord yoshida from sacred stone some time.  very nice kit and he
made it himself.  its really about effort.



For someone who is just starting out, it is just too darn expensive. I
know... Dead Horse... I will stop beating.... 

>>>>>LOGAN
i completely armor new guys in very protective gear and get them on the
field for under $300.  if thats too much for someone they should consider
getting a part time job or saving some money.  also, bear in mind that half
of my kit is plastic and it holds true for my students as well.  its about
appearance not material.  the argument that anything but plastic is too
costly has been shown to be weightless time and time again.  but, even so,
it is irrelevant as the new law doesnt address material it addresses only
appearance.  plastic is one aspect of it but it reads "blatantly modern
items"


You are very correct when you state that by it's nature, plastic cannot and
never will be safer that steel. It takes more force to move heavier steel.
Thusly lighter plastic will only tranfer more energy to your body, and cause
greater pain, bruising, and later swelling and moaning and begging for
messages from loved ones. That and plastic is really hard to polish. I am
currently writing a paper on the application of current sports medicine and
athletic training techniques and guidlines for use in the SCA. I hope to
have it done in a few months. I have worked/volunteered for the last 15
years as an Athletic Trainer and am currently attending school (and trying
to get into med school) to become a doctor in the field of sports medicine.
I could spend hours arguing that of all the joints to cover, the shoulder is
te most important. It is vastly more complex and fragile (have you ever
acually seen on a diagram how small the rotator cuff muscles are? 

>>>>>LOGAN
havent see a diagram but i have both a current mri and pictures of my
shoulder.  i have three weeks post op from having two spurs cut off of my
right shoulder, a depression carved into the top of my humours, torn and
damaged tissue cut off of my interior cuff (glenohumeral) and diagnosed with
distal clavicle osteolysis from years of abusive arm movements from sca
fighting.  i also had a distal clavicle resection in which they detach the
deltoid muscle from the end of the clavicle, cut about 3cm off of the
clavicle to give more clearance for the bursa and humours and then reattach
the deltoid group to the new end of the clavicle.  so i am sure that we
agree on the importance of protecting the shoulder.  however my surgery was
based not on a hit to the shoulder but the way i throw some of my shots and
the torque i put the joint on.  i havent worn any shoulder armor in about 8
years and have not received any damaging blows to it.



we're talking Milimeters here!) But this is a topic for another thread. I
commend the push to be more realistic on the field, but for me, I have to
ask, is it worth the cost of excluding people based on their economic
status? 


>>>>>LOGAN
but the push is, again, to make it at least look like we are interested in
the middle ages.  why anyone would argue against that is beyond me.  this
organization is supposed to be about the middle ages and not some weekend
fight club.  it takes no effort to simply cover the inappropriate things up.
or would you suggest that hello kitty umbrellas would be acceptable if its
drizzling at an event?  where does it stop?  its not the material.  and, if
someone cant afford to hide or disguise their tennis shoes they need to
worry about more important priorities.  



When I first started fighting 13 years ago here in Misty Marsh, I put on the
carpet armour and fought the likes of Duke Sir Olaf and Sir Kane. Because I
was a lowly little airman in the dorms without the resources to buy some of
Lupus' stainless armour, I settled to fight in the carpet and get pummeled
and bleed. The constant teasing from my fellow combatants was enough for me
to try to get my armour little by little, piece by piece and now am the
proud owner of a GAA set of mirrors and a Master Johann von Bruckenhiem
(sp?) helm. My minor (as of right now) is Sports Psycology, and I already
knew one thing they tried to teach me: Not thinking about how bad you look
is more time to think about how to play. In other words, When you look good
- you feel good, and when you feel good - you play even better.

I am sorry to have to disagree with you on price. Would you please get me in
contact with your leather and steel supplier?

>>>>>LOGAN
i sure will.  drop by and see me here in charlotte anytime and i will take
you out to the scrap yard.  there we will look around and find whatever you
need or want.



I go to the scrap yard and steel is about 30-40 cents a pound and stainless
is about 2-3 bucks a pound (if you can find the right guage - hard but not
impossible).


>>>>>LOGAN
you gotta barter with these guys if you are paying a premium price like
that.  i pay around 15 cents for steel and the most i have ever paid for
stainless or aluminum is $1



 The leather factory I get my leather from for my belts ( I make leather
belts 8-10 oz Oak tanned) and we no longer get the SCA discount (except for
bulk orders to companies) and the last hide I got was over $300.00 dollars.
Latigo and Sole bends are way out of my price range.


>>>>>LOGAN
come to charlotte, we still get the "sca" discount.  and ask for seconds on
your hides.  you are making armor out of it and its going to get scuffed.  a
little wax and a few fighter practices later and it wont look like a
masterpiece anymore.  the only leather i wear is on my thighs and i have had
that for almost 8 years now.  a little neatsfoot oil goes a long way.



  I get 55 gallon drums for 5 bucks. I bought my heat gun for $45.00 and
rivets and nylon webbing is cheap (I use football pants straps for $1.99).
$95.00 is the cheapest helm and used hockey glove are everywhere on ebay
(but I don't recommend them due to the fact that finger tips are still
unprotected... ask any hockey player!


>>>>>LOGAN
another great set of sources.  now cover it up and youre good to go.  a
tabard can be made for near nothing.



Oh God... I have seemed to rambled on here. I am sorry. I would love to talk
more with you on the subject of sports related trauma and anything dealing
with SCA combat and armour. Thank you for taking your time to pass on your
kowledge to others on the subject.


>>>>>LOGAN
haha, i have many stories of injuries and little broken things.  most come
complete with x-rays, pictures, video, or scars.  stop by and see me at
pennsic and ill buy you a beer and we can talk about it and compare ideas.
best of luck to your endeavors in the medical field.  i am sure that you
will be able to find a constant source of customers in your chosen hobby.
8^)

regards
logan


Ld Angus MacDoughall Mhic Comyn, OSB
Seneschal of Misty Marsh

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "logan" <dukelogan at bellsouth.net>
To: <atlantia at atlantia.sca.org>
Sent: Thursday, October 23, 2003 8:13 PM
Subject: RE: [MR] cheap armor


> lord dieterick, the owner of dark victory, offered to include fabric 
> to cover his hdpe "armor" for anyone in atlantia that purchases his 
> stuff
after
> an online discussion came to pass about our law.  while this was/is a 
> kind offer i would warn against buying his stuff.  it is substandard 
> and inadequate.  his wild claims of it being safer than pieces of 
> steel armor are outrageous.  ultimately it is your call but i would 
> suggest that you bear in mind that armor is worn to provide some 
> safety for its wearer. plastic knees, elbows and others simply are not 
> as safe as heavier
materials
> when it comes to joints and their protection.  dark victory armor also
looks
> atrocious.  while you may well be able to simply glue fabric on it to
comply
> with the letter of the law the shape of his stuff is just bad.
>
> armor can be made out of metal and or leather for the same price as
plastic.
> those that insist that isnt true simply havent tried.  whatever you 
> can
make
> out of plastic you can make out of leather and you dont need to heat
leather
> up.  same tools to cut and shape the leather as you would use with the 
> plastic but no heat.  matt, ask around for some assistance in getting 
> your gear together and i am sure that you will find many willing an
knowledgeable
> people to help.  if you are in the charlotte area feel free to contact 
> me and i will give you a hand.  i am available on wednesdays and very 
> rarely
on
> a weekend.
>
> regards
> logan


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