[MR] Chivalry (was: Templar challenges Osama)

[james barker]

I have to agree with Ii here. The medieval ideal of chivalry is far 
different than the Victorian era our modern ideals come from.

First as Ii pointed out other religions were below Christians in and a man 
like Osama would be put down like a dog and no second thought would come of 
it. Ii has a great example from Froissart.

Also if Osama did use a champion in a judicial duel then he would still die 
if his champion lost.

Second to see the big difference in chivalry look at out heavy fighting 
compared to real sword fighting as show in the manuals that still exist. The 
SCA fighters call anything against SCA rules unchivalrous and some even call 
thrusting tips, which are OK in the rules unchivalrous. No look at every 
manual. Face thrusts, groin kicks, grappling, and stabbing the groin are all 
legitimate combat moves in armor in a tournament.


SCA chivalry and medieval chivalry is not the same thing, lets not forget 
that.


James de Biblesworth










From: "Tatsushu ." <tatsushu at hotmail.com>
To: jeanne at atasteofcreole.com, atlantia at atlantia.sca.org
Subject: [MR] Chivalry (was: Templar challenges Osama)
Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2003 01:04:42 -0900

>Besides, no true knight who lived accordingly to chivalry would ever
>stoop to challenging a diabetic old man, who is missing a kidney. A
>champion of his maybe, but not the man himself. A true knight does not
>make war on the infirm, women, children, or the mad. The author's
>knowledge of chivalry leads a little to be desired.

While I appreciate the rest of your post (I missed the first post, 
regrettably), I have to question this last statement.  It is a narrow 
statement about what is 'knightly' and 'chivalrous'.  If said infirm madman 
is causing the deaths of many others (and, let's face it, he's non-Christian 
so that would have made the decision easier for many European knights), then 
I see no reason that a knight wouldn't make war on him.  Furthermore, I 
think it depends on the time and place for your definition of 'Chivalrous'.  
Even more it depends on your own personal interpretation of the code of 
chivalry.

Look at Hugh le Despencer the Elder, attacked as a part of the traitors 
responsible for corrupting Edward II and executed at the age of 90, IIRC, in 
1326.  I don't recall Froissart mentioning anyone having a problem with 
making war against him.

Old, mad, infirm, women, and children can be made war against if it is 
necessary; is it not important to protect the innocent women, children, old, 
and infirm from those who would do them harm?  That is not to say that one 
does not weep for such neccessity.


-Ii

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