[MR] Re: Follow up report on the combat arrow that hit IstvanToth

Mon Jul 28 20:03:23 PDT 2003

Richard,

There is a thread going on the armour archive about this, which gives more
info.

http://www.armourarchive.org/ubb/Forum2/HTML/002223.html

Apollonia

Signora Apollonia Margherita degli Albizzi
Kingdom of Atlantia
www.livejournal.com/users/apollonia

**La vita senz'onore e un viver morto.**

-----Original Message-----
From: atlantia-bounces at atlantia.sca.org
[mailto:atlantia-bounces at atlantia.sca.org]On Behalf Of Richard Mowbray
Sent: Monday, July 28, 2003 10:40 PM
To: atlantia at atlantia.sca.org
Subject: Re: [MR] Re: Follow up report on the combat arrow that hit
IstvanToth

I have a question, where is the archer who shot a man who had his
helmet off and was standing 50' from the combat on the other side of a
100' bridge? Let's hear it for the total lack of judgement on this
person's part!

With my weapon in hand, within striking range of my oponent, I have
never been tempted to let-go a shot at someone who DIDN'T HAVE A HELMET
ON! I think we should publish this "combatant"'s name and ask them a
few pointed questions.

Unless the pro-archery-at-any-cost folks can convince us that he took
off his helm and then shot himself in the face, at least one other
person was directly involved in this incident.

Folks, let's get real about this.

Sir Richard de Montbrai

--- "Robert Dawson, PA-C" <rdawson at ezwv.com> wrote:
> Greetings all,
>
> I'm a displaced Atlantian currently stuck in the Mid-realm. I'd like
> to make
> some observations in the interest of rumor control...
>
> > >1) Is it customary to take off one's helm before one leaves the
> > >list, if there's combat archery?
> >
> > It doesn't matter if it is customary or not within his Kingdom, it
> is
> > against SCA rules.  SCA rules state that you shall not remove your
> helm on
> > the field of battle.
>
> Siegfried's right, and no, it's not customary here.  But I've seen a
> fair
> number of fighters over the years in several kingdoms, including Fair
> Atlantia, and at Pennsic, pop their tops and then walk to the side
> lines.
> IMO we need to do more to discourage that behavior.  Hopefully this
> incident
> will help raise everyone's awareness.
>
> > So, in this case, one or more of any one of the following SCA rules
> was
> broken:
> > A) The guy removed his helm while still on the field of combat
>
> Yes, sort of (see below)
>
> > B) A Marshal didn't see this and call hold immediately
>
> True.  But...
>
> > C) The 'spectator safety zone' was not properly marked, as is
> required
> when
> > Combat Archery is in effect, and therefore this guy didn't know he
> wasn't
> > in the safe zone.
>
> No, it was marked, and was a safe distance away.
>
> > >2) Was a hold called, which would mean that shooting stopped? Or
> > >was combat still going on?
> >
> >  From getting more information on this topic from the Society
> Combat
> > Archery Marshal.  No hold.  The fighting was still going on.
> Basically,
> > this guy was dead, walked over to the 'side' of the bridge, and
> removed
> his
> > helm to stand there and watch the fighting.
>
> Ummm, no.  My Lord Siegfried's version above, IMO, paints an
> inaccurate
> picture.  Sjt. Toth was killed on the bridge, he walked apx 50 feet
> from the
> end of the bridge and off at an angle from the corner, turned to
> watch the
> fighting, felt himself to be in a position far enough from the
> fighting to
> be safe, and took off his helmet.  He was not at the side of the
> bridge,
> which I've heard repeated, but he was indeed, not in the spectator
> area,
> either.  However, it is clear, he should not have done that,
> regardless of
> how safe he felt.
>
> > >3) Can erics be set up in such a fashion that allows for the free
> > >play of the archers' capabilities and still allow people to enjoy
> > >the spectacle?
>
> Certainly.
>
> > In fact, this is required by SCA law (as I mentioned above).  A
> definite
> > 'edge of the battlefield' and 'spectator safety zone' are to be
> marked
> when
> > missiles are on the field.
> >
> > In this case, either it was not done.  Or it was done, and wasn't
> 'safe
> > enough'.  Or is was done, and this guy was knowingly standing
> inside the
> > 'non-safe area'.
>
> It was done, it was safe enough ( in the marshal's opinion) , but, as
> you
> say,  "this guy was knowingly standing inside the 'non-safe area'".
>
>  > I have full sympathy for this guy, the injury he sustained, and
> pain he
> is
> > going through.  I do wish him quick recovery.  However, given the
> facts at
> > the moment, it is obvious that this accident was caused by either a
> failure
> > of the marshals to follow/enforce the rules, this fighter to follow
> the
> > rules, or a combination of both.
>
> I don't think it would be fair to call it a failure by the marshals
> in this
> instance.  Their attention was focused on the fighting before them,
> not on a
> fighter 50 or more feet behind them.  It was an accident.  But it's
> clear
> that it was a potentially avoidable accident.  I think it's necessary
> for
> all of us to be aware of fighters who might remove thier helms too
> soon.
> Perhaps with combat archery/siege weapons there may be a need to have
> some
> 'sideline' marshalls watching to prevent this very thing.
>
> regards,
>
> McKenna
> Atlantian wanderer
>
>
>
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=====
I Live to Serve
Sir Richard

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