[MR] Re: *WH* Vivants / Magnus' reply

[James.Harvey.Davis at pmusa.com]

An appeal to all.

Let us not take up sides in this.
Let us not take to our keyboards.
If they wish to hash this out in a public forum, let us not add fuel or
confusion to the fire.

And if you can't leave it alone, try to leave the subject line exactly the
way it is so those who do not wish to participate can set up e-mail catchers
and delete it.

Please.

Thanks,

Gerlach

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	rmhowe [SMTP:MMagnusM at bellsouth.net]
> Sent:	Wednesday, February 26, 2003 7:30 AM
> To:	keep at windmastershill.org; - Atlantia; - Atlantian Laurels
> Cc:	'Logan'; Isabel
> Subject:	[MR] Re: *WH* Vivants / Magnus' reply
>
> logan wrote:
> >
> > Poster: "logan" <dukelogan at bellsouth.net>
> > now if we can only deal with .......
> > cowardly little peers that refer to dukes as dogs
> > regardless of provocation, intent, justification, fact, or reason all
> > behind the safety of an electronic keyboard and for no defendable
> > reason,..............
>
> Are you off your medications?
> Deal with this. Warmly and affectionately meant.
>
> I can't speak for anyone else who may refer to you as a dog.
> Personally I haven't. I wouldn't rule out anyone else though.
>
> However I imagine you are referring in part at least to me on
> a wide forum. Why don't we make it even wider hero?.
>
> There are TWO Dukes in this Kingdom I don't have any respect
> for anymore based on their personal nasty behavior towards others,
> and one I used to have no respect for I am told has improved.
> I am not alone in my assessments.
> You are most certainly one of the TWO. There aren't any other
> Dukes I am referring to as a group. Never used the word Dogs at all.
>
> How many -cowardly little peers- are your referring to? Lots?
>
> Just me?  I am neither little (310, 6'3") nor at all cowardly.
>
> The roughly 85% or more of Atlantia's Peers you referred to as
> "INCAPABLE of POLLING CORRECTLY"?  [your exact words]
>
> Or anyone who doesn't kiss your imagined magnificent behind?
> Boy, that could be a whole lot. Wow.
> I think everyone Atlantian deserves to read your esteemed words.
> You've already copied a large percentage of them here in our
> very large barony of roughly 500 and the Queen to be.
>
> Everything else I have repeated is based on first-hand observed FACT,
> giving an accurate description of your words and your behavior
> concerning
> other peers/people in Atlantia, which was not in any way chivalrous.
>
> I approached you with a Laurel Petition from Atlantia to Ansteorra,
> about Marc Carlson [Footwear of the Middle Ages Pages, etc.],
> figuring you might know him as a scholar who had contributed
> a lot to the Society, and I thought you might sign it too if
> you knew of him. I had to mail it the next Monday.
>
> I got treated to an off-hand totally immature performance whose
> like I have never seen in the SCA before or since, and rarely in
> the real world, outside of the state prison mental wards I once worked
> in.
>
> I most certainly have referred to you as a terrible example of
> the Chivalry on the Laurel List, many of whom are also Knights, Dukes,
> and Pelicans, and to the King at the time in name, and on the WH
> list, not by name, but by described actions more than once, as a
> very bad example. I repeated what you said about them. I was told
> by the then King that you certainly did not represent the opinion of
> the Chivalry about the other Orders.
>
> Of course, since you have the lovely reputation you have earned for
> yourself there was no doubt in anyone's mind (who's been around
> for a while) on WH who it was being discussed by me. Since you
> monitor our baronial list I wonder why you didn't reply a previous time.
>
> I -do- regard you as the worst example of Chivalry currently in
> Atlantia, and one of the two worst Dukes we have ever had in
> your personal behavior. Atlantia would be a much nicer place without
> you - I firmly believe that too. You may feel the same about me.
> You do put on a pretty act for the populace sometimes. I don't act.
>
> Regardless of provocation you say? I have been told you made snide
> comments behind my wife's and my backs when we were loading our car
> with the chair I use because I can't sit in most without worsening
> pain. I have chronic heavy myofascial pain and a rather advanced
> case of fibromayalgia going on more than twenty years. This was
> after I defended our WH Knight most politely.
> You were -never- insulted at the time or ever before by me.
>
> I didn't hear you clearly myself, a trusted friend said you made
> the remarks, but wouldn't or couldn't repeat them. I suspect this
> is for the same reason I never told our decent Knight what you had
> to say about him and his household. I saw in passing you were behind
> us at the time but I couldn't make anything out. I have heavy tinnitus
> at least half the time. That means a constant buzzing/ringing in the
> ears. I also have tested low tone hearing loss. I operated a lot of
> loud machinery for years. At the end of the Collegium that afternoon
> I was in high pain as well. I've been functionally disabled since
> 1994 and on Social Security/disability rated at 400%. Some may recall
> I shook like a popcorn popper at my Laurelling. [Of course you did
> insult my friends, and my whole order - that I clearly heard.]
>
> I have never in my adult life feared any narcissistic bully.
> I've had my share of them to play with too. I'm still here.
> By and large they lost, apart from the crooked Prison Dept where
> I couldn't win, and neither could anyone else honest.
> I am 51, have been disabled nearly nine years, and you probably
> have a safe edge on me. I spend 85%+ of my waking hours pretty
> much confined to a chair, but with several days' rest I can function
> for a short while. I'm much slower now than I once was.
> However I have beaten several men at at time in very real fights
> sometimes involving real weapons, and four of six who were beating a
> friend of mine over his car by myself bare-handed. There have been
> very many times I fought one or two at a time in real life on the
> streets or in the Prison. So it's not as if I am unskilled.
> Of course I was younger then. I hear you're passing your prime.
>
> I have simply related all the insults about a Windmaster's Hill Knight
> YOU SAID HAD NO BUSINESS BEING A KNIGHT OR HAVING A HOUSEHOLD. I
> have not named that good Knight, nor told him, because he is someone,
> unlike you, whom many of us older Windmasters here regard as honorable
> and a valued friend. For some reason you seem to have an insane hatred
> of him, and a miserable opinion of the vast majority of Atlantia's
> Peers.
> 85% seems about correct. Somehow this seems very VERY TWO-FACED to me.
> You will complain about the 28 KNIGHTs you said are also "incapable of
> polling
> correctly" and say YOU WERE FORCED TO KNIGHT THE MAN AGAINST YOUR WILL,
> then you will back-bite him, and all those Knights, and also the Laurels
> and the Pelicans as -whole- Orders. This is mature behavior huh? I
> related
> that too, and nothing I said was un-truthful in the least.
>
> WHO do you respect besides yourself? No one I've heard of.
> On the other hand I am told you want a triple Peerage. Why?
> YOU don't respect the members' opinions, or so you told me directly.
>
> I suppose you could ask your two squires who were listening and watching
> your performance at the time to perjure themselves and say it didn't
> happen.
> They were grinning at the time. You made a great example of Chivalry and
> proper Peer Behavior doing that in front of them. Still, I imagine they
> want knighthoods and as we all know, who gets made a Peer is up to the
> Crowns, and not necessarily the Orders, unless you wimp out and bitch
> later.
>
> You are the ONLY knight/duke/peer I have ever seen throwing an actual
> foot-stomping, like a four year old's temper tantrum - exiting stage
> left
> (really, it happened) - NOT because I insulted you at the time (and I
> didn't), but because I disagreed with you and defended the better
> Knight's reputation by recounting his history in part.
>
> I related instances in which the man was cheered by the whole kingdom
> crowd watching at Salt Wars II (They were chanting his name before
> battle was joined.) before he blasted through ranks 20-23 deep alone
> in a bridge battle; when he vaulted the shield wall at Pennsic alone
> and took out 7-8 men with a mace before a hold was called; fighting
> all day at a Raleigh demo when he was badly hurt in the shin. I took
> him to the campus infirmary that night myself for treatment. That leg
> had a grisly look to it. He's a good family man as well.
>
> In the nearly twenty years I have known that man I have never seen
> him behave cumulatively as badly as I saw you behave in that twenty
> minute performance. The scarey thing is you were sober at the time.
> You went ballistic when I described him as a local hero in Atlantia's
> early days and stormed off. This was long after his knighting too.
>
> Apparently, anyone who doesn't agree with your opinions 100% is
> -functionally stupid- in your opinion, and you resent it ever after.
> I also don't believe a man with the low opinions of others you have
> stated has any business leading Atlantia. I said that before too.
>
> In fact after I asked you about the Petition to Ansteorra YOU brought
> up -everything else- we discussed, which had very little to do with
> anything I initially said at all. Your response then was very much
> like your loss of control in this letter I am replying to. Wild.
> You shoot your mouth off like a hair-trigger gun with no sense of
> reason.
> In fact I wonder if you were at all sober when you wrote it. Look at it.
>
> I disagree with you. Lots of people disagree with you.
> Lots of people talk about you and your behavior.
> I hear tales from them at events and I'm not even around
> that much. The sheer volume I haven't heard must be staggering.
> Thankfully you are in another barony.
> People like you cause people to leave the Society, or in the case
> of some of them join alternate groups within it like my household.
> I can't think of a soul who has ever left it because of me.
>
> You on the other hand will tell someone who's slaved at events for
> more than two decades that they will never get a Golden Dolphin as
> long as you can prevent it. And then tell the whole Kingdom on
> Merryrose you throw out petitions for awards for people from people
> in their immediate area.
>
> I am also not afraid of you in the least.
> I told you once before on the WH list: "Bring it on Hero!"
> You knew who I was talking to then, so what's it been? - eight months?
> You didn't reply then, even privately. Why now? Are your ears on fire?
> Or do you think now would be a good time to convene some sort
> of Peerage Court? Would you be immune as Crown soon? Is that it?
> The kind of behavior I have seen come from you cheapens the perception
> of the Peerages. If your kind of behavior is really acceptable then
> they can't be worth that much. Which saddens me a great deal quite
> honestly. As a peer I find it very offensive, and apparently the only
> way to deal with it is to OUT IT because it isn't getting better with
> time.
>
> Did that long ago post cause you to lose control on the field for
> which you were later sanctioned, required to apologize on Merryrose,
> and then required to hold a next University class on Self Control?
> I guess that didn't work, huh?, not judging from this letter.
>
> When I was at Twelfth Nite someone said you'd recently pushed a
> relatively new fighter down an embankment in armor backwards. Is this
> true?
> If it is, why haven't the Chivalry/Marshalls had you back in court?
> Who cannot imagine a broken neck from such behavior?
>
> I suspect you would have pissed yourself in some of the situations
> I have been in back about the time you were a very little boy.
> But you seem to suggest I am a coward. Who else do you refer to?
>
> I remind you I worked three years Maximum Security custody -inside-
> NC's OLD Central Prison in the worst areas, never on the wall, never
> on the gates, and they had a turnover rate of 85% per year then. It
> would have been longer, only I put a complaint in through channels
> concerning the corrruption on my shift, including the actual beating
> of mental patients in straight jackets while they were hallucinating,
> the exposure of naked men handcuffed to steel bunks with the windows
> open two feet away in winter weather, the opening of locked doors
> behind other guards to knock them off the promotion lists, etc.,
> that subsequently cost me my job, like half a dozen other honest men
> I worked with who went before me, and doubtless many more since then.
> I mentioned that also. At first I was standing up for two black officers
> falsely accused originally when I was singled out for special treatment
> too for my honesty. Specifically I worked A/B/C/D tiered cellblocks
> which
> included Death Row, the only Hospital for the whole Prison Department,
> the Mental Health building, the Special Treatment building (mental),
> the Hospital Dorm (180 inmates in the same room alone, help four floors
> and two locked doors away), N Dorm alone where 120 permanently assigned
> inmates were housed, the Diet Kitchen and the Main Kitchen. The main
> kitchen was the only place I was ever behind bars or armed. Otherwise
> I had only a blackjack I never used one year or my last two years two
> judo (police) sticks about seven inches long. I took a good 120 weapons
> my last two years. The permanently assigned inmates wouldn't come
> anywhere near me. In fact five went to the East Side Superintendant and
> put a death threat against me because of it.
> Normally outnumbered more than 100 to 1. Yeah, that sure describes a
> coward. The damned inmates were better armed. I faced down bunches in
> the middle of them sometimes all by myself.
>
> Since I have been in Atlantia 22 years and am hardly unknown I am
> wondering why you are bringing this up at this late time. We've
> been at the same events multiple times since. You haven't said a damn
> thing to my face, and we have been quite close, and I've been waiting.
>
> Perhaps you have forgotten the other part of the same conversation
> you had with me? It also involved your plan (I didn't ask about
> this either) to take Sacred Stone Canton out of the Barony of Sacred
> Stone, unite it with Tridrochaid (Three Bridges, south of you in SC),
> and to take our WH canton to the Southwest and join them into a new
> barony. ONLY you said YOU KNEW YOU DIDN'T WANT THE ONE with ANTON in it.
> Well the canton that -was- there is the one with ANTON in it. It's
> still a part of the Barony, but not a Canton anymore. Don't you like
> Anton either? Or have you worn your welcome out of a large part of
> your Barony and wanted a new one of your own? When I asked you who
> it was you said approached you about this from WH you couldn't
> recall anyone by name. (You sure were full of news I didn't ask about.)
> But Mistress Francesca, our seneschal of the time, should remember me
> telling her about that part of the conversation a few minutes later.
> Her reply was "Well, he'll have to ask."
> That didn't work out did it? Sacred Stone has a different name.
> That's all. I thought the older one was much prettier.
>
> I didn't hear about you back-biting me and the wife personally
> until weeks later, or you wouldn't have been laughing long no
> matter how sick I was that afternoon.
>
> As for talking about you, I'm hardly the only one who does that,
> and I -was- provoked by you, and unlike you I tell the truth about
> it. In fact I said it quite clearly on the WH list I knew you were on.
> Show us where I have called you a dog for example, or any other
> Duke a -dog-. Bad and Good Dukes - yes.
>
> I have been hoping that by telling the truth I might inspire the
> Peerages in Atlantia to stand up to your sorry behavior and also
> hoping (in vain apparently) that it might cause you to modify
> it yourself. No, instead you simply fight harder to try to win
> more. You have to prove yourself for your personal aggrandizement.
> I am told your health is worsening because of it. What happened at
> Crown?
>
> You rave like a lunatic. Sometimes face to face. Sometimes on list.
> In my opinion you need to see a psychiatrist.
>
> No, I don't have a psychology degree. I did take multiple (4+?)
> psychology courses in Education and I did work predominantly around
> severe mental cases in prison. Hundreds of them. About 80% of those
> three years because I did the job when others didn't. We had suicidals,
> self-immolators, and self-mutilators with two hundred stitches at a
> time.
> Don't do the job and someone dies. I saved a few, including one on
> fire from the knees up. Had I been allowed in the cell blocks and
> dormitories more often I would have taken many more weapons.
>
> Here's clear clues for you from someone who is -not- a coward:
>
> 1) You mess with me (or the wife) again directly face-to-face or
> directly behind either of our backs and you'd better plan ahead
> on putting an end to me right then. Not much scares me anymore,
> not much at all. Certainly not you.
> I'll come back as much as necessary elsewise handicapped or not,
> lose initially or not. You keep thinking you'd like a piece of me.
> Many people in realer positions of power than yours thought that. Once.
>
> 2) I'm in pain every damned day - and you think I'm frightened of or
> impressed by the likes of you?  No - I used to grab and hold your sort
> down for heavy Thorazine shots in the butt. Not scared then, not scared
> now. I don't take your kind of crap off of anyone, including you.
> Let's say I don't care how dangerous it is. I don't.
> I fought for other folks all my publicly-employed life as well.
>
> I associated with real men I could respect - black and white.
> I don't respect and won't ever associate with you.
> You cannot fool all of the people all of the time. You opened my eyes.
> I value honor, generosity, mutual obligation and honesty over rank,
> not the opposite. It's obvious our definitions of honor are very
> different.
>
> I don't play the kind of silly games you apparently live in in your
> head.
>
> 3) BTW. There are -only- Three Recognized Society-Wide Peerages. Being
> a Duke doesn't make you higher socially than -everyone else- as you tell
> us.
> It's honorary. It really means you ought to be an example of a better
> man.
> Unfortunately for us all sometimes some Dukes aren't, and the poor
> Kingdoms suffer for it, which is one of the very worst problems in the
> SCA.
>
> Enjoy my reply. I'd watch calling other people cowards, and I wouldn't
> recommend posting when you are not in a 'right' frame of mind either.
> That green chair travels with me everywhere. Just in case you can't
> recall who it is you're insulting. Keep an eye out. Maybe you can
> insult it for a change.
>
> Master Magnus Malleus, OL, Elvegast {Raleigh}, Windmasters' Hill,
> Atlantia, Great Dark Horde / Bob Howe, professional SoB.
> xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Original Posting repeated below in full raving context:
> xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> RE: *WH* Vivants
> Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 23:37:52 -0500
> From: "logan" <dukelogan at Bellsouth.net>
>   To: <keep at windmastershill.org>
>   CC: "'Logan'" <dukelogan at directvinternet.com>, "Isabel"
> <ward4633 at Bellsouth.net>
>
> Poster: "logan" <dukelogan at bellsouth.net>
> i can only add that the way we were treated at ymir was phenomenal.  it
> speaks volumes towards the way we should behave within the sca.  hats
> off to alejandro and everyone involved for making it that much more
> real.  now if we can only deal with tennis shoes, coleman chairs,
> plastic armor, cowardly little peers that refer to dukes as dogs
> regardless of provocation, intent, justification, fact, or reason all
> behind the safety of an electronic keyboard and for no defendable
> reason,..............
>
> not to mention hockey gloves and half naked so called 'belly dancers',
> or guys in catholic school girl skirts running around with katans and
> bad accents claiming to be scots or kelts, the sca would be in much
> better shape.
>
> i am inspired to great lengths by the works of alejandro and nikulai and
> daemon and the rest of the staff at ymir.  what a great event and a
> great tribute to atlantia.  his excellencys attempts at a first court
> were equally inspiring.  what heart and cause baron falcon showed.  the
> peerage ceremonies done by their majesties were inspiring as well.
>
> if only all events could be done so well as this years ymir. vivants
> windmasters hill!
>
> regards
> logan
> xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> I now return you to your usual Merryrose arguments.
> This has all been an illusion. Ignore the man behind the curtains.
>
> ========================================================================
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