[MR] Re: Triton Speaks.......

Tue Apr 22 12:30:54 PDT 2003

----- Original Message -----
No, Milady, it doesn't.  I had my Pelican long before I was honored
with a Court Barony...I had also been given a GoA many years even
before the Pelican.  So my Court Barony carried absolutely no arms at
all...but I really appreciated it!  So yes, even though a person may
already have a Laurel, they could still get a Pearl if they don't have
one...it just wouldn't carry the Grant that someone who didn't already
have a Patent (by way of a peerage of some sort) would get.  And...even
later than that (after the Goa, the Court Barony and the Pelican), I
was chosen to be a landed baroness...which also carried a Grant.  Now,
when a landed baron steps down, they are given a Court Barony...and a
Grant came with the landed Barony!  However, since I already have a
Patent of Arms (Pelican) and am already a Court Baroness, I won't be
given either, but rather confirmed in my rank as Court Baroness.

I guess that makes it about as clear as mud...but then, that's how
Precedence often is!

Kiri

> Message: 6
> Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 07:30:08 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Lady Rhiannon of Berra <ladyrhi at direcway.com>
> Reply-To: ladyrhi at direcway.com
> Subject: Re: [MR] Re: [AtlantianHeralds] Triton Speaks on the GoA
> of the OHM
> To: atlantia at atlantia.sca.org
>
> So does this mean that for those people who have
> already received Peerages and the like and just
> recently received Court Baronys and like, these new
> awards not only don't "count", they shouldn't have
> happened?
>
> I'm confused...
>
> LadyRhi
> --- Judy Gerjuoy <jaelle at Radix.Net> wrote:
> > On Tue, 22 Apr 2003 Batcok at aol.com wrote:
> >
> > > Greetings to all who read these words from Baron
> > Michael Batcok, Triton
> > >Principal Herald.
> >
> > <snip>
> >
> > > I must disagree with you on this point.
> >
> > <snip>
> >
> > > In my investigation I have also searched the
> > Precedents and the Cover
> > >Letters of the Letters of Acceptance and Return of
> > the Laurel Sovereigns
> > >of Arms (a compilation of heraldic decisions
> > available on the Laurel
> > >Herald's section of the Society Web Site). In
> > searching these documents I
> > >have found nothing referring to this type of issue.
> >  As I do not claim
> > >perfect observation skills, I invite any who wish
> > to please search them
> > >also to ensure I have not missed anything.  As this
> > is such a heated
> > >issue with strongly differing opinions, I am
> > addressing a letter to the
> > >Laurel Herald asking his opinion on this issue.
> > When I hear from him I
> > > will relay his answer to these lists.
> >
> > Well, I am afraid you missed the ruling. From the
> > November 1982 cover
> > letter:
> >
> >
> ***************************************************************
> >
> > "Another question concerns multiple awards. There
> > are three levels of
> > arms in the SCA: arms by Award, Grant, or Patent, in
> > increasing order of
> > precedence. Once you receive a particular level of
> > arms, you cannot later
> > receive that same or lower level, as such action
> > would have no meaning or
> > effect. Thus, a person who receives an Award of Arms
> > is an armiger. If a
> > King incorrectly later gives that armiger a second
> > Award of Arms, that
> > second action is null and void because it has no
> > effect: the person was
> > already an armiger. The ceremony of the presentation
> > of the second Award
> > of Arms did serve the purpose of expressing the
> > King's desire to reward
> > the armiger, and so was of some effect, but the
> > second Award of Arms
> > should not be listed in the Order of Precedence.
> >
> > Similarly, if a Grant of Arms holder receives a
> > later Award of Arms or
> > Grant of Arms, the later action is of no effect and
> > should not be listed.
> > If a holder or a Patent of Arms later receives an
> > Award of Arms, a Grant
> > of Arms, or another Patent of Arms, then the later
> > action is of no effect
> > and should not be listed. You can only receive one
> > Patent of Arms. A man
> > who is a Knight, a Pelican, a Laurel, a Viscount, a
> > Count, and a Duke has
> > exactly one Patent of Arms, not six."
> >
> ******************************************************************
> >
> > There are other rulings from that cover letter that
> > we use today, such as
> > the fact you only recieve one patent (as is made
> > clear in the Atlantian
> > scribal handbook).
> >
> > I hope this makes matters clear.
> >
> > Jaelle
> >
> >
> >
>
========================================================================
> >                    The Merry Rose Tavern at
> > Cheapside
> >     List Info: http://merryrose.atlantia.sca.org/
> >   Submissions: Atlantia at atlantia.sca.org
> > Subscriptions:
> >
> http://seahorse.atlantia.sca.org/mailman/listinfo/atlantia
> >
> >
>
>
> =====
> Gina MacNeill
> SCA Name:  Rhiannnon of Berra
> Chirurgeon, Exchequer, Weaver, Jane of Many Trades
> Azure, bend sinister two unicorns reguardant contorny Or
> http://atlantia.sca.org - SCA Website for the Kingdom of Atlantia
> http://www.geocities.org/ladyrhi1966 - Personal website (NOT up yet)
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 11:17:53 -0400
> From: BATCOK at aol.com
> To: AtlantianHeralds at yahoogroups.com
> Cc: pearls at atlantia.sca.org, dolphins at atlantia.sca.org,
>   atlantia at atlantia.sca.org, dukecuan at hotmail.com,
> dukelogan at bellsouth.net,   padraigin at earthlink.net,
> queen at atlantia.sca.orgSubject: [MR] Re: [AtlantianHeralds] Triton
> Speaks on the GoA of the OHM
>
> In a message dated 4/22/2003 8:07:16 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> jaelle at Radix.Net writes:
>
> > From the November 1982 cover letter:
> >  ***************************************************************
> >
> > "Another question concerns multiple awards. There are three
> levels of
> > arms in the SCA: arms by Award, Grant, or Patent, in increasing
> order of
> > precedence. Once you receive a particular level of arms, you
> cannot later
> > receive that same or lower level, as such action would have no
> meaning or
> > effect. Thus, a person who receives an Award of Arms is an
> armiger. If a
> > King incorrectly later gives that armiger a second Award of
> Arms, that
> > second action is null and void because it has no effect: the
> person was
> > already an armiger. The ceremony of the presentation of the
> second Award
> > of Arms did serve the purpose of expressing the King's desire to
> reward> the armiger, and so was of some effect, but the second
> Award of Arms
> > should not be listed in the Order of Precedence.
> >
> > Similarly, if a Grant of Arms holder receives a later Award of
> Arms or
> > Grant of Arms, the later action is of no effect and should not
> be listed.
> > If a holder or a Patent of Arms later receives an Award of Arms,
> a Grant
> > of Arms, or another Patent of Arms, then the later action is of
> no effect
> > and should not be listed. You can only receive one Patent of
> Arms. A man
> > who is a Knight, a Pelican, a Laurel, a Viscount, a Count, and a
> Duke has
> > exactly one Patent of Arms, not six."
> > ******************************************************************
> >
> > There are other rulings from that cover letter that we use
> today, such as
> > the fact you only recieve one patent (as is made clear in the
> Atlantian> scribal handbook).
> >
> > I hope this makes matters clear.
> >
> > Jaelle
>
> Yes it does and I thank you for pointing it out to me.
>
> Under the light of this evidence, I withdraw from my previous
> position and instruct the Clerk of Precedence to apply this ruling
> to these cases.  If any have questions, please contact me directly.
>
> Batcok, Triton
>
>
>
> --__--__--
>
>
========================================================================
>              The Merry Rose Tavern at Cheapside
>    List Info: http://merryrose.atlantia.sca.org/
>  Submissions: Atlantia at atlantia.sca.org
> Subscriptions:
> http://seahorse.atlantia.sca.org/mailman/listinfo/atlantia
>
> End of Atlantia Digest
>